new toy for chinese snipers

isthvan said:

Mate it is not too big or too heavy and sniper rifle doesn’t have to be maneuverable because you will not storm building whit sniper rifle. Sniper rifle is used to provide cover for team that is entering building…

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Obviously you wouldn't storm the building with a sniper rifle. How dumb do you think iam? I was saying that shouldn't the PAP have something that is more compacted and less bulky in sniper rifle terms? There are many sniper rifles which are smaller and lighter yet at the same time the give the same accuracy and punch. Weight does matter in some scenarios. If you were required to run up 20 stories in crucial time with a heavey sniper rifle or a light sniper rifle obviously you would go faster carrying a lighter one. But this is in the smallest of scenarios.

PAP and swat units can procure whatever domestic or foreign weapons they can get its hands on. They are not limited by the logistical inertia and need for conformity that the army is. So they'll get whatever fits their needs...

Chengdu J-10 said:

Obviously you wouldn't storm the building with a sniper rifle. How dumb do you think iam? I was saying that shouldn't the PAP have something that is more compacted and less bulky in sniper rifle terms? There are many sniper rifles which are smaller and lighter yet at the same time the give the same accuracy and punch. Weight does matter in some scenarios. If you were required to run up 20 stories in crucial time with a heavey sniper rifle or a light sniper rifle obviously you would go faster carrying a lighter one. But this is in the smallest of scenarios.

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Mate I really don't think you are dumb but that you simple don't understand differences between law enforcement and military requirements for sniper rifle...

Weight,dimensions, rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenario. Only thing that matters is how accurate rifle is and nothing else...
You see while for military there is no difference between wounded or dead enemy, no deference between head shoot or torso shoot in hostage situation you may find your self in situation where you need to score hit in particular part of the body(for example head, or hand holding the gun) because if you don't hit thing that you are aiming for there is 100% chance that hostages will be killed...

And best type of gun that will provide that level of accuracy is still high caliber bolt action rifle. Lighter designated marksman rifles(type88,SVD,M-21 etc.) are intended for aimed semiautomatic fire at ranges beyond the capabilities of standard infantry assault rifles and they joust cant provide level of accuracy needed for LE scenarios...

isthvan said:

And best type of gun that will provide that level of accuracy is still high caliber bolt action rifle. Lighter designated marksman rifles(type88,SVD,M-21 etc.) are intended for aimed semiautomatic fire at ranges beyond the capabilities of standard infantry assault rifles and they joust cant provide level of accuracy needed for LE scenarios...

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The Barrett company might disagree with you, sir! The semi-automatic anti-materiel weapon currently used by U.S. forces snipers is the one that provided the accuracy for the alleged "world-record" kill at thousands of meters. And, by the way, they are experimenting with a 25mm version that is still man-portable and will not cause lasting physical damage to the shooter! The ability of the semi-auto to return to battery quickly, with less punishment to the shooter, has made it the current weapon of choice for the real long-range killers.

And, while we're on the topic, why do you think the accurized, semi-automatic M-14 rifle has suddenly become a hot issue item in the two current U.S. conflict zones? The people from the "units that don't exist" have made the determination that for 400-1200 meter shots (most sniper engagements), the so-called designated marksman weapon just doesn't have the killpower needed. The DMW just gives the better shots in a squad a somewhat more accurized weapon in an engagement, until the pair of M-14 equipped people can arrive from the platoon level. Again, the faster cycling of the M-14, its moderately-reduced kick and jump, its increased range and killing power

The part that puzzles me still is: We're spending tons of money for Picatinny rails and improved sights and such for our infantry squads. Yet, we still don't insist on adding a week to basic training strictly dedicated to marksmanship. Back in my competitive shooting days, I still remember shooting against - and losing to - one helluva deadeye Marine company clerk!

If we are talking about 12.7mm anti material rifles like Barret XM500 then I don't see problem if they are semi auto versions. Those guns are made for engaging targets like trucks, parked aircrafts,radar cabins etc. They are also great for engaging targets like enemy snipers or personal in the cover behind cars etc. But they were never designed like dedicated anti personnel weapons and thanks to characteristics of 12.7mm ammo I would newer use them in hostage situation...

As for M-14, AR-10s and SR-25 they are issued to troops as designated marksmanship rifles to provide aimed fire at longer ranges in target rich urban environment... They are great rifles, whit more then sufficient accuracy for there intended role but I don't see Marines replacing there M40s whit any of them...

They simple don't have level of accuracy needed for LE and you can see that bolt action rifles like Remington model 700 Police/M40/24/ Steyr SSG 69/Mauser 86SR are weapons of choice for LE work(whit rare exception of few high quality semi autos like PSG-1)... We are talking about situations were you,for example, need to shoot terrorist in right eye from 300m but you don't wont to blow head of the hostage in the process... And while 300m looks like small range it is not easy to achieve level of accuracy needed for LE using military issue weapon(M40 and counterparts excluded)...

As for weight hostage situation is typical LE situation and weight is simple not the issue. You are not in military operation traveling 40 km on foot whit 40kg of gear and 180+ rounds of speer ammo...

isthvan said:

Mate I really don't think you are dumb but that you simple don't understand differences between law enforcement and military requirements for sniper rifle...

Weight,dimensions, rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenario. Only thing that matters is how accurate rifle is and nothing else...
You see while for military there is no difference between wounded or dead enemy, no deference between head shoot or torso shoot in hostage situation you may find your self in situation where you need to score hit in particular part of the body(for example head, or hand holding the gun) because if you don't hit thing that you are aiming for there is 100% chance that hostages will be killed...

And best type of gun that will provide that level of accuracy is still high caliber bolt action rifle. Lighter designated marksman rifles(type88,SVD,M-21 etc.) are intended for aimed semiautomatic fire at ranges beyond the capabilities of standard infantry assault rifles and they joust cant provide level of accuracy needed for LE scenarios...

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I understand and KNOW the difference between law enforcement and military sniper rifles. One thing you have missed is that military sniper rifles are designed for harsh environments were the rifle will be abused and yet must still perform a near constant accuracy and reliability. While law enforcement on the other hand you won't be in such harsh conditions as the military. This is due to that law enforcements are mostly in urban environments. The Type 88 uses the 5.8 X 42mm rifle heavey round cartridge much lighter than your high calibre rifle cartridge and thus giving it a smaller firepower and less accuracy (accuracy that might be, correct me if im wrong in this part). The cartridge was mean't to be used on the new utility machine gun but found that it could be used on their new sniper rifle. The Type 88 semiautomatic gives a faster success shot (kill time) then the convential bolt action sniper rifles. (though may not be as accurate)

Chengdu J-10 said:

I understand and KNOW the difference between law enforcement and military sniper rifles. One thing you have missed is that military sniper rifles are designed for harsh environments were the rifle will be abused and yet must still perform a near constant accuracy and reliability. While law enforcement on the other hand you won't be in such harsh conditions as the military. This is due to that law enforcements are mostly in urban environments. The Type 88 uses the 5.8 X 42mm rifle heavey round cartridge much lighter than your high calibre rifle cartridge and thus giving it a smaller firepower and less accuracy (accuracy that might be, correct me if im wrong in this part). The cartridge was mean't to be used on the new utility machine gun but found that it could be used on their new sniper rifle. The Type 88 semiautomatic gives a faster success shot (kill time) then the convential bolt action sniper rifles. (though may not be as accurate)

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Mate we are running in circles here... So lets go on your original question regarding SiG2000:

Chengdu J-10 said:

Isn't that rifle a bit to big and heavey for the PAP for hostage rescue where your sniper rifle must be manuevered fast?

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Weight,dimensions and rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenarinly thing that matters is extreme accuracy and stability of results in any weather conditions....

Now since the majority of LE or CT scenarios require precision shooting at the distances of 100-300m and we are talking about high level accuracy of ~0.3-0.6MOA (MOA being Minute Of Angle) which means that at 550m rifle should place 5 bullets inside 50mm diameter... You joust cant achieve that kind of accuracy whit semi auto...
Also in that kind of scenario most engagements require joust few shots per scenario - sometimes only one shot...

Chengdu J-10 said:

The Type 88 uses the 5.8 X 42mm rifle heavey round cartridge much lighter than your high calibre rifle cartridge and thus giving it a smaller firepower and less accuracy (accuracy that might be, correct me if im wrong in this part). The cartridge was mean't to be used on the new utility machine gun but found that it could be used on their new sniper rifle. The Type 88 semiautomatic gives a faster success shot (kill time) then the convential bolt action sniper rifles. (though may not be as accurate)

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Chengdu like I said type88, like any other designated marksman rifles, is great in here role but simple not suited for hostage rescue scenario... That rifle was designed to extend reach of aimed fire for troops in combat environment and for that use she is perfectly suited. In such scenario fast target acquisition and high rate of fire are advantage but in hostage rescue situation there are simple not important... What is important is ability to hit the particular part of the body and to do it whit one single shoot and that is all there is to it...

Sorry to derail. But measuring grouping size by how many shots must land in a certain radius circle is clearly unscientific way to measure. It should be a proportion of shots that land in a circle, and the total number of trials should be quite large. Then you have a statistically sound way of measuring. The distribution should be roughly normal and so you can easily estimate the standard deviation from the proportion that lands within a radius. In other words, should use CEP instead of * inch groups.

Isthvan: Your continued contention on the inherent inaccuracy of semi-auto sniper rifles bothered me, so I just instant-messaged a couple of Army sniper team platoon leaders - one in Iraq, the other in Afghanistan - from another forum I'm in. Their unified response: Both teams are using the M-21 (accurized M-14 with synthetic stock) as their primary. Both teams have returned their bolt actions to inventory, as they are getting better accuracy from the M-21. As one put it, "The 124 Hajjis we've put down in the past six months don't care whether we used a bolt-action or a semi-auto. They're still dead." He himself has a 900-yard kill with the M-21.

isthvan said:

Mate we are running in circles here... So lets go on your original question regarding SiG2000:



Weight,dimensions and rate of fire are unimportant issue in hostage rescue scenarinly thing that matters is extreme accuracy and stability of results in any weather conditions....

Now since the majority of LE or CT scenarios require precision shooting at the distances of 100-300m and we are talking about high level accuracy of ~0.3-0.6MOA (MOA being Minute Of Angle) which means that at 550m rifle should place 5 bullets inside 50mm diameter... You joust cant achieve that kind of accuracy whit semi auto...
Also in that kind of scenario most engagements require joust few shots per scenario - sometimes only one shot...




Chengdu like I said type88, like any other designated marksman rifles, is great in here role but simple not suited for hostage rescue scenario... That rifle was designed to extend reach of aimed fire for troops in combat environment and for that use she is perfectly suited. In such scenario fast target acquisition and high rate of fire are advantage but in hostage rescue situation there are simple not important... What is important is ability to hit the particular part of the body and to do it whit one single shoot and that is all there is to it...

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Yep i know weight,dimensions and rate of fire we had already discussed this earlier so we can move on now. The Type 88 everbody nows wasn't designed for the PAP but for the PLA most people know that. The Type 88 sniper rifle wasn't built for extreme accuracy for hostage situation. (We all know that to) The Type 88 was mean't to be designed as a designated marksmen for a rifle to be fired for BVR of normal assault rifles. So i and all of us know all these alright. Good thats cleared up. What is really bothering me is it seems that you don't like the Type 88 or semi auto sniper rifles. (maybe i'm wrong about this) But if your using the Type 88 in combat environments (not hostage situations) and are in the PLA it doesn't matter if you are going to get hit in the leg or torso, your screwed. (exceptions for the head, getting hit in the head lights out) So the rifle is for faster rate of fire to either kill or wound soldiers putting them out of action. The Type 88 is still an accurate rifle bottomline even if it is a semi automatic.