*New J-10 Thread*

[Duran]

Russia nightmare has finally emerged. Russia has always worried that China one day will make an aircraft that is capable and cost effective then its own, and then sell it to the international markets. ...QUOTE]

IMO, whether or not J10 will outperform Su-27, the exportation of J10 will not consider mainly on economic aspect. With China's trade scale (2005 merchandise exports, US$762.7bn), it might not be meaningful for China to increase only hundreds of J10 exportation and break its cooperation with Russia at the moment.

The mounting geo-political stress from US in central Asia, the Middle East and the North-east Asia, has pushed China and Russia closer than ever. It's the pressure from US that the two countries signed border treaty in October 2004 to settle their border dispute.

This might be my wild imagination, perhaps J10 will raise China's stake to negotiate with Russia in its weapon export to China, or evne further to form some kind of consortium (like Eurofighter GmbH) to develop future planes.

 

[crobato]

Thats the enlarged version of the same picture posted recently.

The change of numbering occured late 2004, just as the 44th Division finished. The PLAAF decided to change its numbering system.

The old system goes like this.

1. First and fourth digit - 1 = Division number
if the division number is less than 10, it is 1st and 4th digit - 11.

Thus 4xx5x = 44th Div but
1xx2x = 1st Div.

2. 2nd digit is the last digit of the regimental number. If the regimental number is the 16th Regiment for example, the number is 6. (Note this is not true of the regiment below 9).

Thus the 6th, 16th, 26th and 36th Regiments are numbered 6. The 131st Regiment of the 44th Division has "1" at its number.

3. The 3rd and 5th number represents the plane's serial number in the regiment. There are 24 to 32 aircraft per regiment, so the numbers are 01 to 32.

4. The colors are either red for old planes, blue on the new planes.


NEW SYSTEM:

1. 1st and 4th digit - 11 = Division number. (So they simplified it).

2. The 2nd digit no longer represents the actual regiment number, but who is the lead regiment for that division. There is 0, 1, 2 because each division has 3 regiments on the average. Except for the ones with the Q-5s, they go all the way to 3. The regiment that gets a "0" is the lead regiment, the top honcho. Second fiddle gets the "1" and the last gets the "2".

3. The 3rd and the 5th digit now represents on the plane's serial number as of the division. Not regiment. A division has 3 regiments, and that can mean anything from 60 to 120 planes total.

If a division has 90 planes for example, the first regiment of that division should be 01 to 29. The second regiment should be 30 to 59. The third regiment should be 60 to 89.

4. The letterings is now marked orange.


For example, in the 1st Division,

1st Regiment gets J-8F. The old number is 10x2x.

2nd Regiment gets J-11. The old number is 11x2x.

3rd Regiment gets J-7E. 12x2x.

When it was reorganized, the 1st regiment now gets 11x2x. But the xx numbers are fairly low. The 2nd Regiments gets 10x2x showing the superior priority the J-11 has even of the J-8F, but the xx is fairly high, denoting a midrange number and regimental position.

In the 18th Division, the Su-30MKKs get the 0 number, 20x9x, but the JH-7A get the 1 number, 21x9x. The Q-5s gets the 2 number.

In the 28th Division, the JH-7A gets the 0 number, 30x9x, but the Q-5s get 31x9x to 33x9x. Again, this shows who leads and who follows.

Here is something neat. In the 3rd Division, the 7th Regiment is the one that got the Su-30MKKs, but recent pics show they now have numbers 11x4x. xx is from 01 to 19. For example, 11140.

But the 9th Regiment, which got the J-10s, is now 10x4x. xx is from 50 to high 70s. (the 8th Regiment should be from 20 to 50). The "0" status in the 2nd digit suggests that the J-10s have the **lead** status even over the Su-30MKKs. That is quite significant, especially the 3rd Division happens to be the most elite formation in the PLAAF (or at least the most favored by the Shanghai clique).

So if you digest all this, this explains the change of the numbering mode in the 44th.

However, the 131st Regiment should have numbers from high 20s to the fifties. Clearly a number in the 7x range puts it in the 132nd Regiment. As a note from the J-10 video, the 131st Regiment kept the numbers on the side of their aircraft like No. 26, while transitioning to the new orange unit numbering. But these new 44th division planes do not have the unit numbers on the side.

As a note, there is also a picture of J-10 50150, still in blue letters, but suggesting the new number mode has taken place, as being taken in late 2004. Either way, under the old system, the 2nd digit 0 would have been the 130th Regiment, and under the new system, the 3rd and 5th digit 10 would also have put the plane under the 130th Regiment. All three, 130th, 131st and 132nd, are from the 44th Division.

 

[tphuang]

Thats the enlarged version of the same picture posted recently.

The change of numbering occured late 2004, just as the 44th Division finished. The PLAAF decided to change its numbering system.

The old system goes like this.

1. First and fourth digit - 1 = Division number
if the division number is less than 10, it is 1st and 4th digit - 11.

Thus 4xx5x = 44th Div but
1xx2x = 1st Div.

2. 2nd digit is the last digit of the regimental number. If the regimental number is the 16th Regiment for example, the number is 6. (Note this is not true of the regiment below 9).

Thus the 6th, 16th, 26th and 36th Regiments are numbered 6. The 131st Regiment of the 44th Division has "1" at its number.

3. The 3rd and 5th number represents the plane's serial number in the regiment. There are 24 to 32 aircraft per regiment, so the numbers are 01 to 32.

4. The colors are either red for old planes, blue on the new planes.


NEW SYSTEM:

1. 1st and 4th digit - 11 = Division number. (So they simplified it).

2. The 2nd digit no longer represents the actual regiment number, but who is the lead regiment for that division. There is 0, 1, 2 because each division has 3 regiments on the average. Except for the ones with the Q-5s, they go all the way to 3. The regiment that gets a "0" is the lead regiment, the top honcho. Second fiddle gets the "1" and the last gets the "2".

3. The 3rd and the 5th digit now represents on the plane's serial number as of the division. Not regiment. A division has 3 regiments, and that can mean anything from 60 to 120 planes total.

If a division has 90 planes for example, the first regiment of that division should be 01 to 29. The second regiment should be 30 to 59. The third regiment should be 60 to 89.

4. The letterings is now marked orange.


For example, in the 1st Division,

1st Regiment gets J-8F. The old number is 10x2x.

2nd Regiment gets J-11. The old number is 11x2x.

3rd Regiment gets J-7E. 12x2x.

When it was reorganized, the 1st regiment now gets 11x2x. But the xx numbers are fairly low. The 2nd Regiments gets 10x2x showing the superior priority the J-11 has even of the J-8F, but the xx is fairly high, denoting a midrange number and regimental position.

In the 18th Division, the Su-30MKKs get the 0 number, 20x9x, but the JH-7A get the 1 number, 21x9x. The Q-5s gets the 2 number.

In the 28th Division, the JH-7A gets the 0 number, 30x9x, but the Q-5s get 31x9x to 33x9x. Again, this shows who leads and who follows.

Here is something neat. In the 3rd Division, the 7th Regiment is the one that got the Su-30MKKs, but recent pics show they now have numbers 11x4x. xx is from 01 to 19. For example, 11140.

But the 9th Regiment, which got the J-10s, is now 10x4x. xx is from 50 to high 70s. (the 8th Regiment should be from 20 to 50). The "0" status in the 2nd digit suggests that the J-10s have the **lead** status even over the Su-30MKKs. That is quite significant, especially the 3rd Division happens to be the most elite formation in the PLAAF (or at least the most favored by the Shanghai clique).

So if you digest all this, this explains the change of the numbering mode in the 44th.

However, the 131st Regiment should have numbers from high 20s to the fifties. Clearly a number in the 7x range puts it in the 132nd Regiment. As a note from the J-10 video, the 131st Regiment kept the numbers on the side of their aircraft like No. 26, while transitioning to the new orange unit numbering. But these new 44th division planes do not have the unit numbers on the side.

As a note, there is also a picture of J-10 50150, still in blue letters, but suggesting the new number mode has taken place, as being taken in late 2004. Either way, under the old system, the 2nd digit 0 would have been the 130th Regiment, and under the new system, the 3rd and 5th digit 10 would also have put the plane under the 130th Regiment. All three, 130th, 131st and 132nd, are from the 44th Division.

why do I get the feeling that all 3 regiments in 44th division have J-10s?
If we use the first old system, then it looks like 131st regiment has J-10 due to the 4104x to 4124x pictures we've been seeing. And then 130th and 132nd regiments would have J-10s based on the pictures of 50150, 50553 and 50756

 

[crobato]

Was there a pic with a plane on the 5065X range? I thought there was one in the CDF.

 

[crobato]

Each fighter has its advantages and disadvantages and thus are complementary to each other; look at the USAF/Navy- they use both F-16 & F-18 types, and the Indians are going for Su-27/30, MiG-29K & light combat aircraft (LCA)! So IMHO regardless of which type scores in those mock dogfights China will field both, at least in the PLAAF. Besides, for the ground attack/Antiship roles the big size of the Su-30 may not be that important thanks to standoff ordinance it most likely will use.

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Regardless of the score, I have a feeling that all the old Su-27SKs, J-11s will be upgraded to the J-11B standard (avionics and radars only, not the engines). The engines won't go WS-10A but rather moded to the FM1 standard, mainly because that is the easy route.

The last J-11As may have gone to the 2nd, 7th Divison and I suspect, the 19th Division, there may be empty airframes that may already have been built that could be converted to J-11B.

 

[tphuang]

Was there a pic with a plane on the 5065X range? I thought there was one in the CDF.

there might have been, there was also the one where it looked like the number was 80754. But anyhow, that's interesting. We might have the following regiments then:
the one FTTC regiment 20-25 J-10s?
2-3 regiments in 44th division 55-80 J-10s?
1 regiment in 3rd division 25 J-10s?
1 partial regiment in 2nd division 10 J-10s?
1 partial regiment in 1st division 0-10 J-10s?

could be anywhere from 110 to 150 J-10s in service?

Just a really speed and rough estimation.

 

[crobato]

We need more pictures actually. The problem has been the frequent reorganizations.

I need to be certain about the position of the unit serial number in relation to the division's regiment order.

For example the Su-30MKKs in the 3rd Division are known to be the 9th Regiment, but the high number on the J-10s suggest it is the 9th that have taken the J-10s, and the Su-30MKKs are moved to the 7th (low number).

Another example, both the J-8Fs and a recent J-11 picture from the 1st Division has a low number (1112x vs. 10021). Both planes should be in the 1st Regiment then. Is it possible that the J-8Fs have been moved somewhere else and the 1st Regiment is now being equipped with J-11s?

There is a pic of J-10 50509 I posted in the CDF. This number baffles me as its sounds like 39th Division. Possibly the letters may have been PSed partly, and 50559 sounds a lot more logical.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

Russia nightmare has finally emerged. Russia has always worried that China one day will make an aircraft that is capable and cost effective then its own, and then sell it to the international markets. ...QUOTE]

IMO, whether or not J10 will outperform Su-27, the exportation of J10 will not consider mainly on economic aspect. With China's trade scale (2005 merchandise exports, US$762.7bn), it might not be meaningful for China to increase only hundreds of J10 exportation and break its cooperation with Russia at the moment.

The mounting geo-political stress from US in central Asia, the Middle East and the North-east Asia, has pushed China and Russia closer than ever. It's the pressure from US that the two countries signed border treaty in October 2004 to settle their border dispute.

This might be my wild imagination, perhaps J10 will raise China's stake to negotiate with Russia in its weapon export to China, or evne further to form some kind of consortium (like Eurofighter GmbH) to develop future planes.

The J-10 beating Su-27 has consistently been heard and mentioned in newspapers and articles. (Even the PLA official article) It states that J-10 beat su-27/J-11 (J-10=5win: Su-27=0win) and even beating the more advance su-30 5:0 in exercises. So to correct your post the J-10 can beat the Su-27/J-11.
Quote Duran: China and Russia getting closer together? China is getting further away from Russia you mean? Especially in arms importing sector. China is relying less and less on Russia every year in arm exports. And China's aviation industry is either on par or surpassing Russia aviation sector. China & India is what after all is keeping Russia aviation industry afloat. Now if the are loosing China that is millions of dollars less to the Russia aviaton companies. So developing future fighters with Russia very slime chance. And China isn't afraid of Russia anymore. Russia was once the mother for China the kid but now the kid is surpassing the mother.

About this numbering conversation. PLAAF is standardnizing the number system through every fighter/attack aircraft. (J-7, J-8, J-10, Q-5, etc.) Read it on some articles on the web. Lost the site but will get right back with the website if found. Don't know if this is old news to you guys but the article was published late 2006.

 

[crobato]

In the most conservative sense, I can the safest say, the number of J-10s would be

FTTC Trials Regiments = At least 20
44th Division 131st Reg = At least 28
3rd Division 9th Regiment = At least 25

With good probability

44th Division 132nd Reg = at least another 24-28 aircraft

Conversion of 1 unit in the 2nd Division, and one unit on the 1st Division. Likely to be the 3rd Regiment of the 1st Division, and the 4th Regiment of the 2nd Division.

There are also rumors of J-8F conversions, including 5th Regiment of the 2nd Division, and 8th Regiment of the 3rd Division.

This may make the first 10 regiments of the PLAAF look like this.

1st Regiment - J-11
2nd Regiment - J-8F
3rd Regiment - J-10
4th Regiment - J-10
5th Regiment - J-8F
6th Regiment - J-11
7th Regiment - Su-30MKK
8th Regiment - J-8F
9th Regiment - J-10

 

[Deino]

Just posted at the Keymags-forum by "edit"

There are at least 3 (monochromes?) MFDs in front of back seat pilot. The size of these MDFs are smaller than those we have seen in JF17 cockpit. Bigger MDFs certainly not available when j10 was designed.