*New J-10 Thread*

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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Elite-Pilot said:
Impossible, F-18E/F has the ability to go just under Mach 2 and the MKI goes well above Mach 2. F-18E/F has a limited payload than the MKI . The Su-30MKI has a better ECM suite. A better radar/avionics suite. And considering that the Indians have a wide array of Russian weapons (some that cannot be carried by the F-18E/F) the MKI takes lead in that sector too. The MKI also has an advantage in data-link and feedback ,simply because its a MORE capable aircraft.

I will agree with you to some extent, as the mki is superior to the f-18/e/f in air superority, but only air superiority. The Apg-79 AESA is superior to BARs, in both tracking ability and range. Plus, can BARs scan other planes and stay undetected? however, the Mki gets more time to fire its missles. The r-77's range is 75km, while AMRAAM's is only 50. If the mki makes good use of its TVC and speed to close in on the f-18, the battle is nearly over for the f-18. The r-73 is probably one of, if not the, most capable SRAAM in the world.

jst because India imported some israeli ECM suite does not mean the su-30mki has the best in the world, israeli technology is available to EVERYONE, even China. what makes you think america, isreals lifeline to gas and money, will not get it?

Btw, are u indian? I dont even recall indianfighter making such claims.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Elite Pilot, nowadays topics related to India are banned by the admins, so we cannot discuss avionics of Su-30 MKI etc. (anyway, this thread is dedicated to the J-10).

Although I agree with you that the avionics and RWR of the Su-30 MKI are likely to be equivalent to that of the F-18s (Australian RWR and cockpit photos dont matter), and that Brahmos will be added to it next year--we must leave the topic here itself.

The J-10 qualifies as a 4.5 generation jet as it has ESA radar and TVC. Regarding the avionics, one cannot say much since the aircraft is kept very secretive by China.
Again the reason for secretiveness for the J-10 is unlikely for the purpose of presenting a surprise element in battle. It is well known that it probably has an ESA radar, has or will have TVC etc.

Contrary to popular perception that PAF is purchasing the J-10 to counter the Su-30 MKI, I believe it is more because of the delay of the JF-17 (due to Russia's embargo on engines) and the truncated order of F-16s (because of the earthquake). It is a desperate measure.

I can say this because prior to Musharraf's visit to China, the J-10 was not even mentioned by PAF. They only had the F-16s and JF-17 in mind + SAAB AWACs.

The competitors of the J-10 are likely to be the F-18, Su-30 MKI, the winner of the 126 MRCA contract and the you-know-what.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
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Sorry i`m new here, but i do not think that j10 is 4.5th generation fighter...AFAIK it is based on 3.5 gen. Izraeli Lavi... It does not have tvc(yet) and i dont think that TVC and ESA radar make 4.5 gen fighter... F-16e/f has AESA and it is still 3.5 gen. fighter...
J-10 is a great fighter wich will greatly improve PLAAF-s capabilities, progress made compared to other indigenously produced combat aircraft is impressive but you can not expect to close 30 years of technology gap with western countrys in a only one decade...
Western avionics are defenetly far superior compared to russian and chinese, and fighters like Super Hornet and EF will still have advantage over Jian`s and Sukhoi`s well in the next decade...
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Indianfighter said:
Elite Pilot, nowadays topics related to India are banned by the admins, so we cannot discuss avionics of Su-30 MKI etc. (anyway, this thread is dedicated to the J-10).

Although I agree with you that the avionics and RWR of the Su-30 MKI are likely to be equivalent to that of the F-18s (Australian RWR and cockpit photos dont matter), and that Brahmos will be added to it next year--we must leave the topic here itself.

The J-10 qualifies as a 4.5 generation jet as it has ESA radar and TVC. Regarding the avionics, one cannot say much since the aircraft is kept very secretive by China.
Again the reason for secretiveness for the J-10 is unlikely for the purpose of presenting a surprise element in battle. It is well known that it probably has an ESA radar, has or will have TVC etc.

Contrary to popular perception that PAF is purchasing the J-10 to counter the Su-30 MKI, I believe it is more because of the delay of the JF-17 (due to Russia's embargo on engines) and the truncated order of F-16s (because of the earthquake). It is a desperate measure.

I can say this because prior to Musharraf's visit to China, the J-10 was not even mentioned by PAF. They only had the F-16s and JF-17 in mind + SAAB AWACs.

The competitors of the J-10 are likely to be the F-18, Su-30 MKI, the winner of the 126 MRCA contract and the you-know-what.

Even before Musharref's visit ACM had said Pakistan will get another plane (he called plus one that would be front line fighter), and he mentioned Gripen,J-10 and one more aircraft as contenders.

Pakistan has kept a close eye on this project. It has been evaluated before but back then J-10 was still shaping up.

No doubt it's a political decision trying to get free from US sanctions but that doesn't take away the great future potential of this platform.

isthvan said:
Sorry i`m new here, but i do not think that j10 is 4.5th generation fighter...AFAIK it is based on 3.5 gen. Izraeli Lavi... It does not have tvc(yet) and i dont think that TVC and ESA radar make 4.5 gen fighter... F-16e/f has AESA and it is still 3.5 gen. fighter...
J-10 is a great fighter wich will greatly improve PLAAF-s capabilities, progress made compared to other indigenously produced combat aircraft is impressive but you can not expect to close 30 years of technology gap with western countrys in a only one decade...
Western avionics are defenetly far superior compared to russian and chinese, and fighters like Super Hornet and EF will still have advantage over Jian`s and Sukhoi`s well in the next decade...

You are in for some rude awakening my friend. If i was you i would read this entire thread and the older J-10 thread before making such comments. Talking in terms of generations is mere generalization as western countries/Russians/Chinese all have different generation standards. You might not have seen a J-10 TVC, but there are pictures of WS-10A AVEN (TVC nozzles) out there.That too from some years ago 2002 if i am not wrong. I have no doubt that things have only gotten better since then.
 
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FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
maglomanic said:
You are in for some rude awakening my friend. If i was you i would read this entire thread and the older J-10 thread before making such comments. Talking in terms of generations is mere generalization as western countries/Russians/Chinese all have different generation standards. You might not have seen a J-10 TVC, but there are pictures of WS-10A AVEN (TVC nozzles) out there.That too from some years ago 2002 if i am not wrong. I have no doubt that things have only gotten better since then.

Your're right.

Isthvan the J-10 is at least a 4th generation aircraft.

China’s first domestic 4th generation fighter, the Chengdu J-10, is about to enter full production, with 200 to 300 being powered by the Russian AL-31FN turbofan before being supplanted by the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine. These will be armed with self-guided PL-12 medium-range AAM and new Chinese PGMs. Both Shenyang and Chengdu are working on advanced 5th generation fighter designs that could enter service by the middle of the next decade.

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It has undergone some major changes since it's Lavi days perhaps you should familiarise yourself with it's development history ?

Now even experts are saying it may soon be able to exceed the abilities of the F-18

In August 2005 Russian sources interviewed at the Moscow Airshow offered confirmation of China’s carrier plans in that two Russian companies offered that China was interested in two types of future carrier combat aircraft, the Sukhoi Su-33 and the Chengdu J-10 modified with a new Russian engine thrust vector to enable slower carrier landing speeds.[13]The Russians also used the Moscow Airshow to market the twin-seat Su-33UB, but modified with thrust vector engines. It is quite likely that all three will be upgraded with new more powerful Russian Al-31 engines, have new active-phased array radar, and carry a range of active guided and helmet display sighted air-to-air missiles and precision ground attack missiles. As such both could offer some performance parameters that equal or even exceed that of the U.S. Boeing F/A-18E/F, the main U.S. carrier combat aircraft.[14]

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Also you should have a look at how fast China is catching up..

This growing military buildup is having an impact. Just compare China's failed attempts to intimidate Taiwan a decade ago with its ability to take the island today. In 1996, military exercises by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) off the coast of Taiwan failed to deter islanders from decisively electing President Lee Teng-hui, whom Beijing accused of harboring pro-independence sentiments. That was, in part, because the PLA was then too weak to constitute a credible threat. Its army-dominated high command was unable even to coordinate the 1996 maneuvers with Chinese marines, air and naval forces, while its most modern Russian Sukhoi Su-27 fighters used old-fashioned non-precision-guided "dumb" bombs. No one took seriously the idea of a naval blockade, let alone an amphibious invasion, especially after the PLA was humiliated by its inability to match President Bill Clinton's deployment of two U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle groups near Taiwan.

Now fast forward to last August, when the PLA staged sophisticated war games with its Russian counterparts for the first time since the Communist revolution, under the double-edged title of "Peace Mission 2005." This time, Chinese army, marine, air and naval forces had no problem coordinating their maneuvers, not just with each other, but also with their Russian counterparts. PLA air-force fighters conducted exercises with information provided by Russian A-50 AWACS surveillance aircraft, while PLA and Russian navy units staged joint anti-ship, air defense and anti-submarine operations. The final stage of the exercise showed just how much China has improved its amphibious landing capabilities over the past decade. PLA army and marine units, assisted by airborne troops, linked up with their Russian counterparts to simulate an opposed shore landing of the type expected to form part of any invasion of Taiwan.

Admittedly, the level of coordination between the various forces during this exercise fell far short of the way American forces work so seamlessly together in joint operations. But that should not obscure the point that, in the space of a decade, the PLA has begun an IT-centered transformation that closely follows the U.S. model.

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isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
Sorry but you have missunderstood what I was traing to say... I said that j-10 is based on 3.5gen Lavi not that it is 3.5gen fighter... It is 4th generation fighter but is not 4.5 gen like EF or Rafale... As for it's development history look at Kfir and Mirage5... Kfir has different engine and avionics, it has kandars but it is still based on Mirage... J-10 is greatly improved and modefied compared to Lavi but its origin`s still go back to Lavi... Something like diference between YF-17 and F-18e...
I did not try to bash J-10 and I did not try to bash China or to underestemate chinese capabilities... I think that chinese progress is impressive but you can not say that technology gap is not there...
As you have said J-10 will have tvc and aesa but current version have russian AL-31FN ( WS-10A is still in development isn`t it? ) and Klj-3 is still not comparable to CAPTOR or AN/APG-68(V)9...
Even Europe has problems with chaching up with some US technologis(AESA, Stealth) and that after 60 years of radar development...
J-10 is a great fighter comparable to F-16c or M2000-5 but not yet comparable to Super Hornet or EF...
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
The lavi is a 4 gen aircraft, because it is based on the 4 gen f-16. As for ws-10a, is was certified in 2005 and will be ready to put on j-11n fighters by 2007. The kjl-3 was based on a varient of the apg-68, with certain improvements. Therefore, it must be at least equivalent to the apg-68 on the block 42 and maybe 50 f-16s.

the j-10 has a huge advantage over the f-18 in a2a combat, for the exact same reasons as the MKI.
Until the eurofighter is equipped with the meteor, the j-10 also has a major missle advantage over it.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
MIGleader said:
the j-10 has a huge advantage over the f-18 in a2a combat, for the exact same reasons as the MKI.
Until the eurofighter is equipped with the meteor, the j-10 also has a major missle advantage over it.

In the case of super bug and Eurofighter J-10 will have to deal with fighters that have very low RCS compared to itself. In both cases J-10 gets detected first in BVR exchange.

I wouldnt be too confident in WVR engagement with Eurofighter given it's outstanding manuverability. Not too sure about F/A-18 E however.

J-10 needs to take the route both these planes have already taken before being a truely worthy opponent. That would be lowering RCS and maybe further improvement in tracking range.
 

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
The lavi is a 4 gen aircraft, because it is based on the 4 gen f-16. As for ws-10a, is was certified in 2005 and will be ready to put on j-11n fighters by 2007. The kjl-3 was based on a varient of the apg-68, with certain improvements. Therefore, it must be at least equivalent to the apg-68 on the block 42 and maybe 50 f-16s.

the j-10 has a huge advantage over the f-18 in a2a combat, for the exact same reasons as the MKI.
Until the eurofighter is equipped with the meteor, the j-10 also has a major missle advantage over it.

I was reffering to western generation standards(3th gen F16, 4th gen Gripen,Rafale,EF and 5th F22)... Sorry if I`m wrong but generation standards are wrealy f.... up:)
I was thinking that Klj-3 is based on AN/APG-66 (cooperation with US in 80`s or obtained from PAF)?
I think that a range of missiles is great advantage but it is not only factor in air combat, you must not forgot ECM, radar characteristics and pilot training and experience...
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
isthvan said:
I was reffering to western generation standards(3th gen F16, 4th gen Gripen,Rafale,EF and 5th F22)... Sorry if I`m wrong but generation standards are wrealy f.... up:)
I was thinking that Klj-3 is based on AN/APG-66 (cooperation with US in 80`s or obtained from PAF)?
I think that a range of missiles is great advantage but it is not only factor in air combat, you must not forgot ECM, radar characteristics and pilot training and experience...
yes, you really should get your standards straight. I didn't want to say anything this morning, but we all see to have some misconceptions here.
Chinese 3rd generation = Western 4th generation, because China skipped the Western 3rd generation pretty much
4th generation by any Western standard - the teens, su-27, Mig-29, M2K
4.5 generation - EF, Rafale, su-35, Gripen, super hornets, F-16 latest block, F-15E, upgraded F-15C
You can argue that J-10 probably started off as 4th generation and will eventually end up in the 4.5 generation.
btw, I'm hesistant putting Gripen even in 4.5, because I'm not a big fan of it, but most people seem to enjoy putting it on the same level as EF and Rafale.

As for J-10 vs EF and F-18E in WVR, it should eat super hornet alive, but typhoon is more doubtful, since typhoon is an extremely maneuverable plane. It was stated as having the second best turn rates behind F-22.
 
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