Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
Definitions below:
-----Empty Weight (lbs)
-----Configuration #1 Weight (C1): Empty Weight + 18,000 lb fuel + 2,400 lb air-to-air missiles
-----Config. #2 Weight (C2): Empty Weight + 7,000 lb fuel + 2,400 lb air-to-air missiles
-----Wing Area (WA) (square feet)
-----Wing Loading for C1 and C2 (WL): C1/wing area and C2/wing area
-----Engine Count (EC): The number of engines the jetfigher has
-----Engine Performance (EP) (lbf): Maximum thrust w/o afterburners and w/ afterburners. These numbers are for each engine a jetfighter has.
-----Max. Thrust to Weight Ratio (TW): Maximum thrust with NO afterburners divided by C1 and C2
-----Max. Thrust (w/ Afterburners) to Weight Ratio (TAW): Maximum thrust with afterburners divided by C1 and C2
Source: Wikipedia (it's not the most reliable source, but it's an easy source to access)
Feature___F-16C______F/A-18C______F/A-18E______F-14D______F-15C______EF-2000______F-22______F-35A
Empty
Weight:__18,900_______24,700_____30,564_______43,735______28,000_______24,250______43,430______29,036
C1:____39,300_______45,100_______50,964_______64,135______48,400________44,650_______63,830______49,436
C2:____28,300______34,100_______39,964_______53,135______37,400________33,650_______52,830______38,436
WA:_____300_________400_________500_________565+300*_____608__________538__________840________459
WL w/ C1:131.000_____112.750______101.928____74.135_______79.605______82.993_______75.988____107.764
WL w/ C2:94.333______85.250________79.928____61.428_______61.513______62.546_______62.893______83.739
EC:_______1____________2_____________2____________2___________2______________2___________2___________1
EP:17,155-28,600__11,000-17,750__14,000-22,000__16,610-27,800__17,450-29,000__13,500-20,250__21,875-35,000__25,000-40,000
TW w/ C1:0.437________0.488________0.549__________0.518________0.721_________0.605________0.685**_______0.506
TW w/ C2:0.606________0.645________0.701__________0.625________0.933_________0.802________0.828_________0.650
TAW w/ C1:0.728________0.787________0.863__________0.867________1.198_________0.907________1.097_________0.809
TAW w/ C2:1.011________1.041________1.101__________1.046________1.551_________1.203________1.325_________1.041
Footnotes:
* The F-14D has a fuselage with a pancake area that can generate lots of additional lift. I estimated from online research that the F-14D's pancake area can provide an additional lift area of 300 sq-ft to 847.5 sq-ft. This additional lift area depends on the F-14D's wings' angle. If the F-14D's wings are fully spreaded out, then the additional lift area is probably around 300 sq ft. If the F-14D''s wings are fully swung backwards (delta style), then the additional lift is probably around 847.5 sq-ft!
** The F-22's maximum thrust without afterburners is a guessed number. The F-22's engine is similar to the F-35's engine, so I figured the two engine have similar performances. The F-35 maximum thrust w/o afterburners is 0.625 of the maximum thrust w/ afterburners, so to get the F-22's maximum thrust w/o afterburners, I multiplied 0.625 into the F-22's maximum thrust w/ afterburners.
Feature_________MiG-29**_________Su-30**_________J-10*
Empty
Weight:__________24,250__________39,021__________17,600
C1:______________44,650__________59,421__________38,000
C2:______________33,650__________48,421__________27,000
WA:______________409_____________667_____________419.8
WL w/ C1:_______109.169***_____89.087***_________90.519
WL w/ C2:_________82.274__________72.595_________64.316
EC:______________2_______________2_______________1
EP:_______11,230-18,285_____16,750-27,560_____17,860-27,557
TW w/ C1:_________0.503___________0.564___________0.470
TW w/ C2:_________0.667___________0.692___________0.661
TAW w/ C1:________0.819___________0.928___________0.725
TAW w/ C2:________1.087___________1.138___________1.021
Footnotes:
* A lot of the information on the J-10 is guess work.
** The MiG-29 and Su-30 data are from the early models.
*** The MiG-29 and Su-30 both have a type of fuselage with a small pancake area that acts like an additional lift area. I did not calculate this additional lift area in the above data, because I don't have any information about the MiG-29's and Su-27's pancake areas' additional lift characteristics.
This simple report does not consider aerodynamics at different speeds and altitudes, fly-by-wire or mechanical control, vectored thrust, engine performance at different speeds and altitudes, avionics and tracking systems, electronic warfare weapons, weapons, stealth, reliability, maintenance needs, maintenance cost, cost to buy, and many other things. This is because I don't have the experience and education to analyze this stuff. If someone wants to compare and contrast these features in each jet, please do so.
I would like to point out how the F-14D has the best wing loading combined with automatically moving wings that continuously move under high G-forces, and the F-15C has the best thrust-to-weight ratio. A "clean" F-14D with fully swept wings, with its strong engines, and with its highest mass that helps give lots of momentum probably has the fastest dive amongst all jets here, and a clean F-15C probably has the fastest climb rate amongst all the jets here. By "clean" I mean no external attachments at all.
With configuration #2, this is the dogfighting ranking based on my AMATEUR knowledge. This ranking considers all speeds and altitudes with equally skilled pilots. A "*" means I gave this jet a helmet mounted tracker even though this jet usually lacks this feature.
EF-2000 = F-22 > Su-30 = J-10 = F-14D* = F-15C* > F-35A > F/A-18E* = F/A-18C* = MiG-29 > F-16C* > F-14D = F-15C > F/A-18E > F/A-18C > F-16C
I graded the J-10 this high even though the J-10 has mediocre wing loading (5th place out of 11 jets) and below average thrust-to-weight performances (it's in a 3 way tie for spots 7 to 10 out of 11 jets), because the J-10 has one of the most sharply swept wings (slick aerodynamics), a small, smooth design, and the J-10 is one of two jets with canards. The F-14D has the best wing loading, incredibly movable wings, and the most mass (lots of momentum). The F-14D's great momentum is less than the F-22's unmatched momentum (the F-22 has lots of mass and 2 powerful engines). The F-15C has the best thrust-to-weight performances, but its boxy shape gives it an aerodynamic performance that is far inferior to the F-14D's uniquely changeable wings and unmatched wing loading. The F/A-18C and F/A-18E have wings that are the least swept back amongst all these jets (good for low speeds but bad for high speeds). The F-16C has the worst wing loadings amongst all these 11 jetfighters! The F-35A is tough to grade because it is a work in progress. I have read that the F-35A's single engine and the F-22's two engines are great at high altitudes, but these engines probably have similar performances to the F-15C's two engines at medium and low altitudes. The F-22 can use vectored thrust at any altitude and the F-35A might get vectored thrust. The F-35B has VTOL, so it should be a very unique dogfighter.
With configuration #2, this is the BVR combat ranking based on my AMATEURISH knowledge. This ranking has equally skilled pilots in all jets. A "*" means the jet has an AESA radar upgrade. The F-35A is tough to grade because it is a work in progress.
F-22 > F-35A > EF-2000 > F-15C* = F-14D* > F/A-18E* > F-14D = F-15C = Su-30 > F/A-18C* = F-16C* > J-10 > F/A-18C = F-16C > MiG-29
What are your rankings of these 11 jetfighters in dogfighting and BVR combat? Assume that the F-16C, F/A-18C, F-14D, and F-15C have helmet mounted sights and AESA, and then assume they do not have these 2 features. I assumed the EF-2000, F-35A, F-22, F/A-18E, Su-30, MiG-29, and J-10 always have helmet mounted trackers.
I think the J-10 can be a top dogfighter if the J-10 gets 3-D vectored thrust, installs an engine with a better thrust-to-weight ratio, uses more advanced materials (stronger but lighter materials), increases the size of its wing, increases the size of its canards and moves its canards farther forward, puts an infrared tracker on the top of its vertical stabilizer, and fires advanced SRAAM with a superb gun system. The J-10 can match the EF-2000's BVR combat ability if the J-10 uses stealth materials, adopts an extremely smooth surface, installs an advanced radar with an advanced cockpit, and uses advanced MRAAMs.
-----Empty Weight (lbs)
-----Configuration #1 Weight (C1): Empty Weight + 18,000 lb fuel + 2,400 lb air-to-air missiles
-----Config. #2 Weight (C2): Empty Weight + 7,000 lb fuel + 2,400 lb air-to-air missiles
-----Wing Area (WA) (square feet)
-----Wing Loading for C1 and C2 (WL): C1/wing area and C2/wing area
-----Engine Count (EC): The number of engines the jetfigher has
-----Engine Performance (EP) (lbf): Maximum thrust w/o afterburners and w/ afterburners. These numbers are for each engine a jetfighter has.
-----Max. Thrust to Weight Ratio (TW): Maximum thrust with NO afterburners divided by C1 and C2
-----Max. Thrust (w/ Afterburners) to Weight Ratio (TAW): Maximum thrust with afterburners divided by C1 and C2
Source: Wikipedia (it's not the most reliable source, but it's an easy source to access)
Feature___F-16C______F/A-18C______F/A-18E______F-14D______F-15C______EF-2000______F-22______F-35A
Empty
Weight:__18,900_______24,700_____30,564_______43,735______28,000_______24,250______43,430______29,036
C1:____39,300_______45,100_______50,964_______64,135______48,400________44,650_______63,830______49,436
C2:____28,300______34,100_______39,964_______53,135______37,400________33,650_______52,830______38,436
WA:_____300_________400_________500_________565+300*_____608__________538__________840________459
WL w/ C1:131.000_____112.750______101.928____74.135_______79.605______82.993_______75.988____107.764
WL w/ C2:94.333______85.250________79.928____61.428_______61.513______62.546_______62.893______83.739
EC:_______1____________2_____________2____________2___________2______________2___________2___________1
EP:17,155-28,600__11,000-17,750__14,000-22,000__16,610-27,800__17,450-29,000__13,500-20,250__21,875-35,000__25,000-40,000
TW w/ C1:0.437________0.488________0.549__________0.518________0.721_________0.605________0.685**_______0.506
TW w/ C2:0.606________0.645________0.701__________0.625________0.933_________0.802________0.828_________0.650
TAW w/ C1:0.728________0.787________0.863__________0.867________1.198_________0.907________1.097_________0.809
TAW w/ C2:1.011________1.041________1.101__________1.046________1.551_________1.203________1.325_________1.041
Footnotes:
* The F-14D has a fuselage with a pancake area that can generate lots of additional lift. I estimated from online research that the F-14D's pancake area can provide an additional lift area of 300 sq-ft to 847.5 sq-ft. This additional lift area depends on the F-14D's wings' angle. If the F-14D's wings are fully spreaded out, then the additional lift area is probably around 300 sq ft. If the F-14D''s wings are fully swung backwards (delta style), then the additional lift is probably around 847.5 sq-ft!
** The F-22's maximum thrust without afterburners is a guessed number. The F-22's engine is similar to the F-35's engine, so I figured the two engine have similar performances. The F-35 maximum thrust w/o afterburners is 0.625 of the maximum thrust w/ afterburners, so to get the F-22's maximum thrust w/o afterburners, I multiplied 0.625 into the F-22's maximum thrust w/ afterburners.
Feature_________MiG-29**_________Su-30**_________J-10*
Empty
Weight:__________24,250__________39,021__________17,600
C1:______________44,650__________59,421__________38,000
C2:______________33,650__________48,421__________27,000
WA:______________409_____________667_____________419.8
WL w/ C1:_______109.169***_____89.087***_________90.519
WL w/ C2:_________82.274__________72.595_________64.316
EC:______________2_______________2_______________1
EP:_______11,230-18,285_____16,750-27,560_____17,860-27,557
TW w/ C1:_________0.503___________0.564___________0.470
TW w/ C2:_________0.667___________0.692___________0.661
TAW w/ C1:________0.819___________0.928___________0.725
TAW w/ C2:________1.087___________1.138___________1.021
Footnotes:
* A lot of the information on the J-10 is guess work.
** The MiG-29 and Su-30 data are from the early models.
*** The MiG-29 and Su-30 both have a type of fuselage with a small pancake area that acts like an additional lift area. I did not calculate this additional lift area in the above data, because I don't have any information about the MiG-29's and Su-27's pancake areas' additional lift characteristics.
This simple report does not consider aerodynamics at different speeds and altitudes, fly-by-wire or mechanical control, vectored thrust, engine performance at different speeds and altitudes, avionics and tracking systems, electronic warfare weapons, weapons, stealth, reliability, maintenance needs, maintenance cost, cost to buy, and many other things. This is because I don't have the experience and education to analyze this stuff. If someone wants to compare and contrast these features in each jet, please do so.
I would like to point out how the F-14D has the best wing loading combined with automatically moving wings that continuously move under high G-forces, and the F-15C has the best thrust-to-weight ratio. A "clean" F-14D with fully swept wings, with its strong engines, and with its highest mass that helps give lots of momentum probably has the fastest dive amongst all jets here, and a clean F-15C probably has the fastest climb rate amongst all the jets here. By "clean" I mean no external attachments at all.
With configuration #2, this is the dogfighting ranking based on my AMATEUR knowledge. This ranking considers all speeds and altitudes with equally skilled pilots. A "*" means I gave this jet a helmet mounted tracker even though this jet usually lacks this feature.
EF-2000 = F-22 > Su-30 = J-10 = F-14D* = F-15C* > F-35A > F/A-18E* = F/A-18C* = MiG-29 > F-16C* > F-14D = F-15C > F/A-18E > F/A-18C > F-16C
I graded the J-10 this high even though the J-10 has mediocre wing loading (5th place out of 11 jets) and below average thrust-to-weight performances (it's in a 3 way tie for spots 7 to 10 out of 11 jets), because the J-10 has one of the most sharply swept wings (slick aerodynamics), a small, smooth design, and the J-10 is one of two jets with canards. The F-14D has the best wing loading, incredibly movable wings, and the most mass (lots of momentum). The F-14D's great momentum is less than the F-22's unmatched momentum (the F-22 has lots of mass and 2 powerful engines). The F-15C has the best thrust-to-weight performances, but its boxy shape gives it an aerodynamic performance that is far inferior to the F-14D's uniquely changeable wings and unmatched wing loading. The F/A-18C and F/A-18E have wings that are the least swept back amongst all these jets (good for low speeds but bad for high speeds). The F-16C has the worst wing loadings amongst all these 11 jetfighters! The F-35A is tough to grade because it is a work in progress. I have read that the F-35A's single engine and the F-22's two engines are great at high altitudes, but these engines probably have similar performances to the F-15C's two engines at medium and low altitudes. The F-22 can use vectored thrust at any altitude and the F-35A might get vectored thrust. The F-35B has VTOL, so it should be a very unique dogfighter.
With configuration #2, this is the BVR combat ranking based on my AMATEURISH knowledge. This ranking has equally skilled pilots in all jets. A "*" means the jet has an AESA radar upgrade. The F-35A is tough to grade because it is a work in progress.
F-22 > F-35A > EF-2000 > F-15C* = F-14D* > F/A-18E* > F-14D = F-15C = Su-30 > F/A-18C* = F-16C* > J-10 > F/A-18C = F-16C > MiG-29
What are your rankings of these 11 jetfighters in dogfighting and BVR combat? Assume that the F-16C, F/A-18C, F-14D, and F-15C have helmet mounted sights and AESA, and then assume they do not have these 2 features. I assumed the EF-2000, F-35A, F-22, F/A-18E, Su-30, MiG-29, and J-10 always have helmet mounted trackers.
I think the J-10 can be a top dogfighter if the J-10 gets 3-D vectored thrust, installs an engine with a better thrust-to-weight ratio, uses more advanced materials (stronger but lighter materials), increases the size of its wing, increases the size of its canards and moves its canards farther forward, puts an infrared tracker on the top of its vertical stabilizer, and fires advanced SRAAM with a superb gun system. The J-10 can match the EF-2000's BVR combat ability if the J-10 uses stealth materials, adopts an extremely smooth surface, installs an advanced radar with an advanced cockpit, and uses advanced MRAAMs.
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