New J-10 thread II

[crobato]

Not true that you need an AESA to get this range. All you need is a powerful transmitter, a tightly formed beam, along with a large receiving antenna with excellent gain. The latter fits a slotted array planar very well. Slotted planar can also produce tight beams with ultra low sidelobs, although it would require very tight manufacturing tolerances of the slots/gates on the arrays that serve as the wave guides---exactly the reason why the Soviet Union did not chose to adopt this array type and went straight to PESA which is not as precision manufacturing tolerant. In fact, a slotted planar might have better signal gain even over an AESA because an AESA gets hot, and the hotter the array, the resulting thermal inefficiencies can cause you to lose in signal gain or reception. This is not to mention that unlike a PESA or AESA, you don't have the phase shifting occurring in front of the array's face, the interference of which can also affect the incoming reception.

 

[challenge]

Not true that you need an AESA to get this range. All you need is a powerful transmitter, a tightly formed beam, along with a large receiving antenna with excellent gain. The latter fits a slotted array planar very well. Slotted planar can also produce tight beams with ultra low sidelobs, although it would require very tight manufacturing tolerances of the slots/gates on the arrays that serve as the wave guides---exactly the reason why the Soviet Union did not chose to adopt this array type and went straight to PESA which is not as precision manufacturing tolerant. In fact, a slotted planar might have better signal gain even over an AESA because an AESA gets hot, and the hotter the array, the resulting thermal inefficiencies can cause you to lose in signal gain or reception. This is not to mention that unlike a PESA or AESA, you don't have the phase shifting occurring in front of the array's face, the interference of which can also affect the incoming reception.

either you are right,J-10 FCR is more advance than the russian and US mechanical radar or at par with euro Captor radar (ef-2000),or the 150km range refering to 15m2 target such surface ship,or being wildly exaggerate
I d suspect the actual range against 3m2 target more likely below 100km.but back in 2004 nanjing radar fabricate T/R MMIC for operate in X band,the output is 8 watts,by contrast the output per T/r for APG-77 is 10 watts .(according miltech. 10 watts is max. output)

 

[tphuang]

either you are right,J-10 FCR is more advance than the russian and US mechanical radar or at par with euro Captor radar (ef-2000),or the 150km range refering to 15m2 target such surface ship,or being wildly exaggerate
I d suspect the actual range against 3m2 target more likely below 100km.but back in 2004 nanjing radar fabricate T/R MMIC for operate in X band,the output is 8 watts,by contrast the output per T/r for APG-77 is 10 watts .(according miltech. 10 watts is max. output)

a big shrimp on Chinese bbs did claim that J-10's FCR has the highest power amongst slotted array radar. But ranges such as 150 km are most likely for search range. The actual lock-on range is not really known.

 

[crobato]

either you are right,J-10 FCR is more advance than the russian and US mechanical radar or at par with euro Captor radar (ef-2000),or the 150km range refering to 15m2 target such surface ship,or being wildly exaggerate
I d suspect the actual range against 3m2 target more likely below 100km.but back in 2004 nanjing radar fabricate T/R MMIC for operate in X band,the output is 8 watts,by contrast the output per T/r for APG-77 is 10 watts .(according miltech. 10 watts is max. output)

Detection range using a slotted array planar at 150km is not hard at all. The Su-27 can do it with a twist cassegrain, so do F-16s (up to 160km, some up to 230km, said to be), and F-14s and F-15s with decades old planars do it pass 200km.

Fire control quality tracking is another matter, and you can expect halving those figures at least.

Also you overrate the importance of the array on this matter. What's more important is the back end, the digital signal processing and amplifying the signals.

AESA and PESA has certain inefficiencies when it comes to signal gain. In AESA its true, the TR module receives the signal directly without a metal plate in front of it. However, if you look at the array face, there are spaces between the T/R modules which means that a certain percentage of the array area that is not utilized for reception. Also if the array face is sending out and receiving signals simultaneously, the phase shifting used for scanning can interfere with the incoming signals.

For certain PESAs, the phase shift elements are situated in front of the receiving face. By doing so, the elements already pose a physical barrier in front of incoming radar waves.

As for TWTs, which are used to generate the emission power for PESAs and slotted arrays, there are those already capable of generating 15 to 20kw.

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[challenge]

other area, was the absent of IRST, IRST not only provide the pilot with "silent tracking" but also detection of missile plumes.F-35 alone has 6 IRST to provide 360 degree of protection against "sneak" attack.

 

[Londo Molari]

either you are right,J-10 FCR is more advance than the russian and US mechanical radar

150km does not mean AESA or advanced. The much older F-14's AWG-9 radar also had ranges over 150km, and that was 40 years ago.

Its perfectly possible (but impressive if true) for a slotted array antennae on the J-10 to have a 150km range against 5m2 target, without being AESA or "more advanced than us/russia". But it would be bigger/heavier and would need more power.

 

[crobato]

AESA actually tends to be heavier than slotted planars. Note the increased of weight in the Japanese F-2 and F-16 Block 60 compared to the Block 52. Its not the array itself but the fact that the array's higher power requirements needs more transformers, which can't be made any lighter due to their iron cores, and the fact that AESA needs to have cooling equipment.

 

[tphuang]

150km does not mean AESA or advanced. The much older F-14's AWG-9 radar also had ranges over 150km, and that was 40 years ago.

Its perfectly possible (but impressive if true) for a slotted array antennae on the J-10 to have a 150km range against 5m2 target, without being AESA or "more advanced than us/russia". But it would be bigger/heavier and would need more power.

a lot of it is the search mode, you have to be very specific about that. APG-68v9 has a really long range in its extended range search mode compared to the previous long range search mode like the uplook search mode or the velocity search mode. But the actually range in TWS mode or STT mode, which would allow the radar to lock on to target, that happens at a much shorter distance. Even N-001 radar, it's 230 km range is actually an early detection range vs the largest possible targets.

 

[challenge]

150km does not mean AESA or advanced. The much older F-14's AWG-9 radar also had ranges over 150km, and that was 40 years ago.

Its perfectly possible (but impressive if true) for a slotted array antennae on the J-10 to have a 150km range against 5m2 target, without being AESA or "more advanced than us/russia". But it would be bigger/heavier and would need more power.

But F-14 has bigger internal volume ,this allow this "big,twin engine" aircraft to carry much larger antenna and transmitter.
by contrast,J-10 hasmuch limited space .

 

[crobato]

Space isn't that limited on the J-10. I remember a Chinese language report saying that a radar the size you can fit on the F-7MF has a theoritical maximum detect range of 160km.