New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I read it somewhere that Musk said that Lidar/Radar makes the car far too expensive while a constantly updated camer/sensor system that is being constantly updated can do the job just as well.
Musk is well known for his bs hot takes. Lidar is already going into mass produced vehicles which pretty much invalidates whatever Musk has claimed about its cost.

His Vision-only approach is a well known failure at this point. Don't forget that Tesla's AI Director who led the Autopilot vision team resigned just some weeks ago lol
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The reality, then, is that the EV industry in the near term will rely more on Chinese battery suppliers to drive down the cost of EVs, while NCM/NCA will likely lose some luster.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Unfortunately for EV suppliers and automakers outside of China, they are at least a year behind the recent advances in China. This guy is writing this article without any awareness of what's going on with that. Nobody cares about NCA batteries anymore. The market is moving to semi solid state and then to solid state. That's what the high end will be using. We are going to hit 500 Kw/kg in a couple of years and probably 300 kw/kg on pack level. On the other end, the cost will keep getting lower with CATL's sodium ion batteries. LFP will keep getting better performance as we move to LMFP batteries. In a couple of years, the difference quality and cost between Chinese battery makers and everyone else will even greater.

The fact that GM is still use NCA batteries by Panasonic should tell you how much in trouble they are. At least Tesla and Ford are working with CATL and BYD. They will get the latest advances in LFP and LMFP technology.

This is just the first domino in EV industry. With the explosion of Chinese EV market, they will also continue to get better in electric motor technology. Keep in mind, BYD buys chips from its own semiconductor business as well as other Chinese suppliers like Hangzhou Silan
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. So China's domestic industry will keep improving in these areas. Most of those new fabs are for China's industrial sectors.

As certain countries continue to just obsess with the high end chips, China will probably slowly come to dominate the older chips which have significant applications in all the industries and manufacturing.
I read it somewhere that Musk said that Lidar/Radar makes the car far too expensive while a constantly updated camer/sensor system that is being constantly updated can do the job just as well.
Yes, Musk was very cheap and overly ambitious. He thought 8 cameras + 2 processors of about 37 TOPS each could do L4 self driving. Complete fantasy based on my personal experience with it. And now, he is at least purchase 5 megapixel cameras from Samsung, which is an upgrade over the 1.25 megapixel ones we have right now.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
BYD is launching its brand officially in Thailand on August 8th with the Dolphin and will establish a manufacturing plant there (confirmed now). Not only that, it has a huge booth space at the Bangkok's Motor Expo 2022.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
From someone in Thailand

lol, people wishing for Tesla in Thailand forgets how expensive Tesla is. That's why BYD can enter ASEAN countries and Tesla cannot even officially enter India. It's one thing to sell cars that would cost 80k USD in these countries after taxes and everything, quite another thing to sell them for 25k USD.

Didn't realize this but 10% of car sales in Singapore are now EVs. Good sign for BYD's launch there.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Are Teslas giving EV's a bad name as they are being touted that they are less reliable than ICE cars. While I'm not sure how this conclusion was arrived at, I heard in a radio discussion involving aspects of the cost of emission reduction, one had to drive 80000Kms before one reached the breakeven point over a ICE vehicle.

Motor Mouth: Dragged down by Tesla, EVs least reliable cars on British roads​

EVs are almost twice as likely to have serious problems as gas-powered cars, according to a survey by U.K. website ‘Which?’

Author of the article:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Publishing date:
Apr 01, 2022 • April 1, 2022

One of the benefits of switching to electric propulsion, say the experts, is that their fewer rotating mechanical bits result in fewer breakdowns. That’s the theory, at least.
In reality, a recent study in the United Kingdom by consumer website Which? says that electric vehicles are actually less reliable than their petrol-powered (that’s “gasoline” in British) competitors. In fact, according to the respondents, EVs are almost twice as likely to develop a serious fault — 31 per cent for electrics, versus just 19 per cent for petrol power — as conventional cars.



Not only that, the typical repair takes longer for cars powered by batteries — five days versus three — than for those swinging pistons. Worse yet, the other supposed superiority of EVs — that they can be more easily and quickly repaired with over-the-air updates — seems to take a hit in the survey of 48,034 car owners (2,184 of which owned pure electrics)


According to the survey, the number one glitch needing attention in EVs was software-related. Married with the fact that, as I said, EVs were also off the road for a survey-topping average of 5.1 days every year, it’d seem there’s little evidence yet of a tangible benefit to OTA updates and repairs.



Indeed, that apparent anomaly seems to be perplexing some experts, James Gibson, the head of technical information for England’s Royal Automobile Club, telling thismoney.co.uk that “There is no question there are fewer moving parts with electric cars,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” but noting “the software running them is more complex, which has the potential to cause some issues.


Perhaps more surprising is that Tesla, the face of EVs and the manufacturer with the most experience building electrics, is the least reliable of the lot. According to the Which? survey, a whopping 39 per cent of Teslas up to four years old had at least one fault, and one in 20 had had a serious no-start situation or a breakdown serious enough that it had to be taken off the road.



On the other hand, owners of Kia’s e-Niro reported their cars to be the most reliable of electrics, with just six per cent of owners reporting a fault of any kind; and just one in a hundred saying their vehicle failed to start or broke down. That said, e-Niro owners who did report a serious breakdown had to wait an average of eight-and-a-half days for a repair, almost three times as long as the three-and-a-half days required to get a Tesla back on the road. Nonetheless, it’s worth noting that while the Kia was the most reliable compact SUV in the segment — triumphing over its gas, diesel, and hybrid competitors — Teslas were the least reliable of all electrics.

Article content​



Troubleshooter
In this file photo, Meagan Martino, a mechanic with Pfaff Porsche in Woodbridge, Ontario, works on a Porsche Cayenne. Taking care of TSBs on your car starts at the dealer level. PHOTO BY COLE BURSTON /National Post
Making matters worse is that, as in so many other jurisdictions, Tesla is the dominant player in England’s EV segment, the Model Y and 3 accounting for almost 25 per cent of the 10,417 BEVs sold in February 2022. Extrapolate the numbers through the entire study and Tesla’s fallibility may well be a large part of the reason that the Which? study found that EVs are the least reliable cars on British roads.



Conventional gasoline-powered cars, however, are not the most reliable vehicles on the road. That honour would seem to be held by conventional — not plug-in — hybrids. According to the survey, just 17.3 per cent of hybrids had even a single fault, and their 3.9 days off the road and 5.6-per-cent breakdown rate was superior to EVs as well. At least part of that advantage is explained by the fact that Toyota, the automaker with the most enviable reliability record in the entire industry, enjoys, according to Electrek,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Marrying all the survey’s data with market share numbers seems to imply it matters less what you drive than who makes it


Indeed, according to Which? cars editor Adrian Porter, “Year on year, Tesla comes up as one the most fault-prone, unreliable car manufacturers thanks to feedback from current owners,” adding that it seems almost “counterintuitive” that electric cars, with so few moving parts, are the most fault-prone in the survey, while full hybrids, “which have two systems of propulsion, are the most dependable.”



Marrying all the survey’s data with market share numbers implies it matters less what you drive than who makes it
This seeming fallibility, however, doesn’t seem to dampen Tesla fans’ ardour, however. Consumer Reports, for instance, notes that the Tesla Model S and X — along with Porsche’s Taycan and the Jaguar I-Pace — scored second-last on its five-point reliability scale, while the magazine considers the Chevrolet Bolt one of the most reliable vehicles on the road regardless of powertrain. (One guess as to which car garners all the headlines and sales.) Other surveys reinforce this seeming dichotomy, a J.D. Power report noting that “while Tesla is seen to have poor quality,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, indicating their willingness to overlook quality problems.”



In other words, the badge displayed on the trunk is more important than the quality of what’s under its hoo


And, as the U.K. data indicates, while the propulsion systems — essentially the electric motors and batteries — are admirably bullet-proof, other aspects of basic construction such as suspension and steering (2018 to 2021 Model 3s seem particularly susceptible to upper A-arm breakdown) still seem to trouble the Silicon Valley upstart.



“The Tesla Model 3 has a reputation for prestige, but the quality of finish… is unworthy of a car selling for $60,000 or more,” concluded Protégez-Vous. That established automakers have a major advantage in this regard also emulates the British data, the most reliable plug-in in Protégez-Vous’ study being — drum roll, please — Toyota’s Prius Prime. And mirroring virtually every study of inter-brand reliability, Protégez-Vous concludes that “Tesla disappoints, Toyota holds up.”]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Are Teslas giving EV's a bad name as they are being touted that they are less reliable than ICE cars. While I'm not sure how this conclusion was arrived at, I heard in a radio discussion involving aspects of the cost of emission reduction, one had to drive 80000Kms before one reached the breakeven point over a ICE vehicle.

Motor Mouth: Dragged down by Tesla, EVs least reliable cars on British roads​

EVs are almost twice as likely to have serious problems as gas-powered cars, according to a survey by U.K. website ‘Which?’

Author of the article:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Publishing date:
Apr 01, 2022 • April 1, 2022

One of the benefits of switching to electric propulsion, say the experts, is that their fewer rotating mechanical bits result in fewer breakdowns. That’s the theory, at least.
In reality, a recent study in the United Kingdom by consumer website Which? says that electric vehicles are actually less reliable than their petrol-powered (that’s “gasoline” in British) competitors. In fact, according to the respondents, EVs are almost twice as likely to develop a serious fault — 31 per cent for electrics, versus just 19 per cent for petrol power — as conventional cars.



Not only that, the typical repair takes longer for cars powered by batteries — five days versus three — than for those swinging pistons. Worse yet, the other supposed superiority of EVs — that they can be more easily and quickly repaired with over-the-air updates — seems to take a hit in the survey of 48,034 car owners (2,184 of which owned pure electrics)


According to the survey, the number one glitch needing attention in EVs was software-related. Married with the fact that, as I said, EVs were also off the road for a survey-topping average of 5.1 days every year, it’d seem there’s little evidence yet of a tangible benefit to OTA updates and repairs.



Indeed, that apparent anomaly seems to be perplexing some experts, James Gibson, the head of technical information for England’s Royal Automobile Club, telling thismoney.co.uk that “There is no question there are fewer moving parts with electric cars,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” but noting “the software running them is more complex, which has the potential to cause some issues.


Perhaps more surprising is that Tesla, the face of EVs and the manufacturer with the most experience building electrics, is the least reliable of the lot. According to the Which? survey, a whopping 39 per cent of Teslas up to four years old had at least one fault, and one in 20 had had a serious no-start situation or a breakdown serious enough that it had to be taken off the road.



On the other hand, owners of Kia’s e-Niro reported their cars to be the most reliable of electrics, with just six per cent of owners reporting a fault of any kind; and just one in a hundred saying their vehicle failed to start or broke down. That said, e-Niro owners who did report a serious breakdown had to wait an average of eight-and-a-half days for a repair, almost three times as long as the three-and-a-half days required to get a Tesla back on the road. Nonetheless, it’s worth noting that while the Kia was the most reliable compact SUV in the segment — triumphing over its gas, diesel, and hybrid competitors — Teslas were the least reliable of all electrics.

Article content​



Troubleshooter
In this file photo, Meagan Martino, a mechanic with Pfaff Porsche in Woodbridge, Ontario, works on a Porsche Cayenne. Taking care of TSBs on your car starts at the dealer level. PHOTO BY COLE BURSTON /National Post
Making matters worse is that, as in so many other jurisdictions, Tesla is the dominant player in England’s EV segment, the Model Y and 3 accounting for almost 25 per cent of the 10,417 BEVs sold in February 2022. Extrapolate the numbers through the entire study and Tesla’s fallibility may well be a large part of the reason that the Which? study found that EVs are the least reliable cars on British roads.



Conventional gasoline-powered cars, however, are not the most reliable vehicles on the road. That honour would seem to be held by conventional — not plug-in — hybrids. According to the survey, just 17.3 per cent of hybrids had even a single fault, and their 3.9 days off the road and 5.6-per-cent breakdown rate was superior to EVs as well. At least part of that advantage is explained by the fact that Toyota, the automaker with the most enviable reliability record in the entire industry, enjoys, according to Electrek,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Marrying all the survey’s data with market share numbers seems to imply it matters less what you drive than who makes it


Indeed, according to Which? cars editor Adrian Porter, “Year on year, Tesla comes up as one the most fault-prone, unreliable car manufacturers thanks to feedback from current owners,” adding that it seems almost “counterintuitive” that electric cars, with so few moving parts, are the most fault-prone in the survey, while full hybrids, “which have two systems of propulsion, are the most dependable.”




This seeming fallibility, however, doesn’t seem to dampen Tesla fans’ ardour, however. Consumer Reports, for instance, notes that the Tesla Model S and X — along with Porsche’s Taycan and the Jaguar I-Pace — scored second-last on its five-point reliability scale, while the magazine considers the Chevrolet Bolt one of the most reliable vehicles on the road regardless of powertrain. (One guess as to which car garners all the headlines and sales.) Other surveys reinforce this seeming dichotomy, a J.D. Power report noting that “while Tesla is seen to have poor quality,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, indicating their willingness to overlook quality problems.”



In other words, the badge displayed on the trunk is more important than the quality of what’s under its hoo


And, as the U.K. data indicates, while the propulsion systems — essentially the electric motors and batteries — are admirably bullet-proof, other aspects of basic construction such as suspension and steering (2018 to 2021 Model 3s seem particularly susceptible to upper A-arm breakdown) still seem to trouble the Silicon Valley upstart.



“The Tesla Model 3 has a reputation for prestige, but the quality of finish… is unworthy of a car selling for $60,000 or more,” concluded Protégez-Vous. That established automakers have a major advantage in this regard also emulates the British data, the most reliable plug-in in Protégez-Vous’ study being — drum roll, please — Toyota’s Prius Prime. And mirroring virtually every study of inter-brand reliability, Protégez-Vous concludes that “Tesla disappoints, Toyota holds up.”]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
You know, it's the funniest thing. I searched for "China" and "Chinese" in that article and I couldn't find a single hit. I then though to myself, "Ah, British. There must be something about MG." Nope, nothing.

It must be my mistake, because of course you wouldn't have posted an article that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Especially not after a helpful soul posted
right above you.

So what am I missing?
 

B.I.B.

Captain
You know, it's the funniest thing. I searched for "China" and "Chinese" in that article and I couldn't find a single hit. I then though to myself, "Ah, British. There must be something about MG." Nope, nothing.

It must be my mistake, because of course you wouldn't have posted an article that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Especially not after a helpful soul posted
right above you.

So what am I missing?
I posted it with the intention of refuting the EL Jazerra article which included the questioning of BYD quality when commenting on how they were outselling Tesla in China, but at the time i stuffed up my cut and paste.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



",,,,BYD’s spectacular rise comes despite years of naysaying about the quality and safety of China’s electric vehicles, underscored by staggeringly high recall rates across the industry that have at times exceeded 10 percent."

{
In the other article I believe the article cites a higher recall rate}



For me personally I agree electric cars have a place they are not the end all and be all. deciding which type vehicle to use is the same as deciding whether to use chop sticks knife fork or spoon when having dinner.
 
Last edited:
Top