New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

Tam said:

Its still Land Cruiser or Prado in many countries. Lexus only in the US and the two warring ex-USSR states. Even in Japan, its still the Land Cruiser Prado. Being a Lexus means the vehicle is full of sound deadening and top trim features, along with an expensive and big V8 engine. The Land Cruiser Prado only comes with 4 or 6 cylinder engines, mostly from 2.7 liter to 4.0 liter, either 4 cylinder, straight six, V6 and diesel 4 cylinders. In paper the Prado should cost much less than the GX470, but car taxes in the US are much lower than in other countries.

Then you come down below it and you have the Fortuner, Hi-Lux and Innova, which are all ladder in frame vehicles and powered with the Toyota TR series gas engines, or some diesel. The Fortuner is what you are seeing as Toyota's main SUV in most markets other than the US, and its pickup counter part is the Hi-Lux. Popular in places like in Latin America, South East Asia, and not the least, Australia and New Zealand.

You have to consider that the cheapest Hi-Lux is only about $15,000 in US dollars in the Philippines, or around P843,000 philippine Pesos; I am going to check on prices for other markets as well. Cheapest base trim Tacoma in the US is about $26,000 over, but I usually see Tacomas around $30,000 to $40,000 when listed.

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I think in countries like India/ Brazil , it’s more about electricity infrastructure, far as I can see, the worst country who can support massive amount of EVs is Vietnam in 2030, imagine the people in Philippine just go 100% electrical, those superchargers would just destroy their power grid
The logic of EV is: people pay less and governments pay more

Philister said:

I think in countries like India/ Brazil , it’s more about electricity infrastructure, far as I can see, the worst country who can support massive amount of EVs is Vietnam in 2030, imagine the people in Philippine just go 100% electrical, those superchargers would just destroy their power grid
The logic of EV is: people pay less and governments pay more

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@Philister concur BUT a side note, electricity here is high, second highest in Asia after Japan, so having EV is a nice to have until the necessary infrastructure is built and my thinking it will persist cause IF the heavy oil users like China , EU and the US go all out EV, then the price of oil will plummet benefitting the legacy ICE user.

ansy1968 said:

@tphuang Sir pardon my insolence and maybe I'm drinking a different kind of morning coffee BUT what! Huawei and BYD complements each other, w/o Huawei 5G kiss your autonomous driving goodbye and other IOT stuff. From what I learn BYD mission is to destroy TESLA not Huawei and BYD Chairman laments the sanction on Huawei, so sir I strongly disagree.

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Philister said:

Crush Hwawei? Yes , in the future, so far, there’s still a huge gap between BYD and Hwawei in software/AI assisted driving , the problem is complicated, not just “A wants to crush B”
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I think this might give you some perspective , I don’t agree with everything in it but in general, NEVs are fundamentally different from conventional cars, BYD collaborating with HW is like Samsung buying Qualcomm chips, in a growing market, it’s not just competition

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Byd is not a kind teddy bear. It's a real bad ass. BYD is not going to rely on Huawei. Just like it's not going to rely on Horizon or Nvidia. If BYD cannot develop its own ADAS that's competitive, then it will just be another manufacturer like Sokon that takes orders from Huawei. Tesla is not a threat to BYD. It can't manufacture batteries at a large scale. FSD doesn't work. The head of FSD just quit. If Tesla is a real threat to BYD, BYD would not be supplying battery technology to Tesla.

Huawei AITO M7 got 60k orders in 72 hours. They have deep pockets and can keep investing until they achieve a certain market share. Baidu just unveiled one of the most futuristic looking and impressive models with Jidu. Huawei and Baidu could be BYD's biggest threat toward total dominance of the Chinese market.

You have to understand how BYD works. They got involved with Daimler AG on denza and learnt how to build high quality cars. They have a bunch of German trained engineers and designers now that would not let a model get put on the market until it reaches high end quality. People that have seen d9 up close have said it's really impressive. Much better interior and finish than Tesla. Partnership up with BYD might turn out to be Daimler's biggest mistake. The got involved with Toyota in this JV. As Toyota continue to get crushed in EVs, it will just be forced to rely more on BYD to produce it's EV products. The longer this partnership goes, the more Toyota will become dependent on BYD for its survival in the new EV world.

If we circle back to ADAS, BYD has now partnered with Baidu for its apollo autonomous driving. It has partnered with Didi to develop robotaxi service with D1. It also has partnered with momenta for autonomous driving. It has invested in Horizon and bought their journey 5 self driving processors. It has bought Nvidia Orin processors also. Under that back drop, it is getting into its own self driving processor (which means it has already been working on it for a while). It also announced that smart driving is the next major evolution in the car industry. It has repeatedly talked about putting the latest technologies in its premium series cars. It has massively ramped up hiring for every area that you need to succeed in smart driving (unlike Tesla).

So what does that tell you? BYD doesn't want to depend on other companies. It won't let itself be reliant on any single supplier. It will learn as much as it can from all these "partners", while developing its self driving processors and smart driving software to be world class. If BYD really cannot figure it out, it will probably just buy out Momenta and Horizon.

ansy1968 said:

@Philister concur BUT a side note, electricity here is high, second highest in Asia after Japan, so having EV is a nice to have until the necessary infrastructure is built and my thinking it will persist cause IF the heavy oil users like China , EU and the US go all out EV, then the price of oil will plummet benefitting the legacy ICE user.

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If the government has the money and will to build a proper infrastructure, the price of electricity won’t be a problem, it could be relatively expensive, but still way cheaper than oil
Electricity is fundamentally cheaper , you can use solar/ wind to harvest electricity, but every drop of oil has to be drilled from earth, and the transportation......
Far as I can tell, Vietnamese government understands the trend, Vinfast may not succeed, but the sheer existence of this company tells something

Philister said:

If the government has the money and will to build a proper infrastructure, the price of electricity won’t be a problem, it could be relatively expensive, but still way cheaper than oil
Electricity is fundamentally cheaper , you can use solar/ wind to harvest electricity, but every drop of oil has to be drilled from earth, and the transportation......
Far as I can tell, Vietnamese government understands the trend, Vinfast may not succeed, but the sheer existence of this company tells something

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@Philister well good for Vietnam BUT the rest of the World follow the Western Liberal economic policy and their gov't don't have the capacity to invest in new infrastructure, thus relying more on the private sector under the PPP program, they in turn focus more on their ROI and are profit driven. Bro What I'm saying is ICE will remain and be a part of the mix in transportation sector until 2100. The legacy ICE infrastructure is already built and in use, we had seen the result of rushing to have a green economy with the Ukraine war.

Looks like LI (Lixiang) has just got a second car. It's a large with 5.2m length but the doesn't look like a body-on-frame. It's a full size crossover.

tphuang said:

Byd is not a kind teddy bear. It's a real bad ass. BYD is not going to rely on Huawei. Just like it's not going to rely on Horizon or Nvidia. If BYD cannot develop its own ADAS that's competitive, then it will just be another manufacturer like Sokon that takes orders from Huawei. Tesla is not a threat to BYD. It can't manufacture batteries at a large scale. FSD doesn't work. The head of FSD just quit. If Tesla is a real threat to BYD, BYD would not be supplying battery technology to Tesla.

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TESLA had option, BYD is not only battery maker available and Sir I can't compute, when competing and selling the same product doesn't that mean you have to destroy or beat your opponent? So why include Huawei in the scheme of things.

tphuang said:

You have to understand how BYD works. They got involved with Daimler AG on denza and learnt how to build high quality cars. They have a bunch of German trained engineers and designers now that would not let a model get put on the market until it reaches high end quality. People that have seen d9 up close have said it's really impressive. Much better interior and finish than Tesla. Partnership up with BYD might turn out to be Daimler's biggest mistake. The got involved with Toyota in this JV. As Toyota continue to get crushed in EVs, it will just be forced to rely more on BYD to produce it's EV products. The longer this partnership goes, the more Toyota will become dependent on BYD for its survival in the new EV world.

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The same can be said of Huawei, BYD don't have huge resource so why not partner who has, My impression is that Huawei is helping the Chinese EV industries using her experience and knowledge in 5G application. It's Chinese and they have a good working relationship as Huawei once used their battery in their Smartphone.

tphuang said:

So what does that tell you? BYD doesn't want to depend on other companies. It won't let itself be reliant on any single supplier. It will learn as much as it can from all these "partners", while developing its self driving processors and smart driving software to be world class. If BYD really cannot figure it out, it will probably just buy out Momenta and Horizon.

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What it tell me, BYD, Huawei , SMIC , Huahong and others are working hard to fill the gap that is vulnerable to Western Sanction, that is the main reason. Its a whole nation approach as they seek what you mentioned independence. The market is large enough for everyone to compete and Competition is good as they innovate and invent to stay ahead of their rivals.

ansy1968 said:

@Philister well good for Vietnam BUT the rest of the World follow the Western Liberal economic policy and their gov't don't have the capacity to invest in new infrastructure, thus relying more on the private sector under the PPP program, they in turn focus more on their ROI and are profit driven. Bro What I'm saying is ICE will remain and be a part of the mix in transportation sector until 2100. The legacy ICE infrastructure is already built and in use, we had seen the result of rushing to have a green economy with the Ukraine war.

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Yes, that is what I always want to say,pure electric would only work in like 30% of the world in foreseeable future, but I think it doesn’t mean traditional ICE vehicles have a place in the future, I think there would only be EV+EREV
EREV, from my point of view,is a perfect replacement for legacy ICE vehicles, it’s actually cheaper and more reliable than ICE cars, use petrol when inconvenient, but the battery it carries still save you quite a lot of gas money when infrastructure were fine.
Without complicated components like gear box, it doesn’t need as much maintenance and cheaper &more reliable

Philister said:

Crush Hwawei? Yes , in the future, so far, there’s still a huge gap between BYD and Hwawei in software/AI assisted driving , the problem is complicated, not just “A wants to crush B”
【苹果、华为、小米，手机公司造车哪家强？| 一苒一刻-哔哩哔哩】

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I think this might give you some perspective , I don’t agree with everything in it but in general, NEVs are fundamentally different from conventional cars, BYD collaborating with HW is like Samsung buying Qualcomm chips, in a growing market, it’s not just competition

Click to expand...

I can see them work together on EV standards for open harmony EV specific modules.

How does certain module interface have to look like so we can all implement our own AI assisting software features easily so we don't have tens of different interfaces which increase cost in maintaining and developing of the AI assisting software.

BlackWindMnt said:

I can see them work together on EV standards for open harmony EV specific modules.

How does certain module interface have to look like so we can all implement our own AI assisting software features easily so we don't have tens of different interfaces which increase cost in maintaining and developing of the AI assisting software.

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@BlackWindMnt Bro that's what I meant, Huawei need to work with Chinese EV manufacturers including BYD with their Harmony OS, having established the 5G infrastructure and its application, they're a customer not competitors.