Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

All good points, but what if:
1. an enemy uses many AWACS with fighter escorts in its own or in other friendly airspace to even the odds. They could be based in Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh & Burma and also fly over Nepal and/orTibet.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

2. E-2s are shot down by long range missiles-
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

3. instead of targeting a carrier, land-based tankers (they aren't stealthy either) & their bases are attacked- without tanker support, airwings are limited to CAP around CBG, as it has to stay further away from shore based missiles. If it comes closer to coast, its volnurability will increase. See my post on another tread-
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?p=45991&posted=1#post45991
Their own subs may wait well outside the nuked area and then arrive on station- it may take them a week but the CBG will still be in bad shape.
Using nukes may lead to escalated responce, but will the US sacrifice Anchorage, Honolulu (& Pearl Harbor with it), Seattle, and/or L.A. for a carrier with a few thousand sailors? I don't think so! A country like China can lose a few large cities along with a few hundred million of its citizens easier than the USA.

1.) That's possible, but then that nation's neutrality will be compromised. Do you really think the US will not cross that nation's border's to attack the said aircraft.

2.) The E-2C has a detection range of about 540 miles. Is there an Air to air missile with that range? I don't think so. Besides, hostile aircraft getting into lauching points will be intercepted by F-18s.

3.) F/A-18 has the capability to become tankers for other aircraft on the carrier airwing.

4.) As for your nuke comment, see Jeff's post. Please lets not get into that. The mods hate that kind of post and I really don't want this thread to be closed.:)

5.) Moskit is a very good missile. But at a max range of about 60-100 miles, the lauching platform won't survive long enough to lauch it. That is assuming that it can find where the carrier is.
 
Last edited:

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

IDonT sez;
4.) As for your nuke comment, see Jeff's post. Please lets not get into that. The mods hate that kind of post and I really don't want this thread to be closed

He is 100% correct. Knock off the nuclear war chat or :nono: :nutkick: :nono: That is exactly what I did not want to happen in this thread.

bd popeye moderator
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

How about sinking a non US carrier.

1.) The French Carrier Battlegroup (Centered around the Charles De Gaulle)
2.) Russian Carrier Battlegroup (Kuznetsov)
3.) The Royal Navy Battlegroup (Invincible Class)
4.) The Indian Navy Battlegroup (Viraat)
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Sorry to be off topic, but just a little thing to note. Link to russian awacs on aviation technology site cites data which has been around since a-50's start. Since then russians have moved (as much as funding allowed them) to a-50u, yet the said website doesn't reflect any changes. Furthermore, after phalcon awacs was cancelled for china, russia offered china a new variant of a-50, which beriev is now pushing around as a-50e. It is interesting to note that china's kj-2000 has same radar in principle, 3 sided phased array, also on il-76 platform. Here is link to beriev's own website.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Sure, it still doesn't equal a modern e3 but we are in year 2006, it is absolutely expected that modern electronics can offer such capabilities.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

How about sinking a non US carrier.

1.) The French Carrier Battlegroup (Centered around the Charles De Gaulle)
2.) Russian Carrier Battlegroup (Kuznetsov)
3.) The Royal Navy Battlegroup (Invincible Class)
4.) The Indian Navy Battlegroup (Viraat)

The Royal Navy's carrier groups defences have been severely weakened recently by the withdrawal of the Sea Harrier F/A 2, as this aircraft had BVR missile capability (Blue Vixen Radar, used as the basis for the Typhoon's radar, and AIM 120 AMRAAMs and AIM 9 Sidewinders). The Harrier GR7 and GR9 have no radar and only sidewinders for AAW so would have to rely on the Sea King ASAC7 or ship radar for interception of enemy aircraft before they reach missile range. Whoever thought this was a good move should have been tried for treason.

As to ship based defences, a typical RN CSG would have at least two type 42 DDGs with Sea Dart SAMs for area defence (Sea Dart still has a fearsome reputation and has been progressively updated over the years, currently on mod 3 standard, and also proved it's anti missile capacity in combat when HMS Gloucester shot down an Iraqi Anti ship missile that had been fired at a USN Battleship in 1991) out to ranges beyond 40 miles. Also with the CSG will be around four Type 23 frigates and possibly a type 22 for ASW Defence using towed array sonars, Lynx HAS 8s and Merlin HMA 1s. The frigates are also armed with Sea Wolf point defence SAMs, engeging any targets that have penetrated the outer defence screens to a range of 10 miles. Sea Wolf was able to shoot down artillery shells when first introduced back in 1979 and is much more accurate now! It has, like Sea Dart, been progressively upgraded including an electro-optical guidance system in addition to the I & K band radars and was designed to cope with saturation attacks, trading long range for rapid fire and high levels of accuracy.
As a last ditch effort, the Type 42s and the Carriers have CIWS ( 2x Phalanx 20mm guns on the type 42s, three Pahalanx guns on Ark Royal and Ocean, two Goalkeeper 30mm on the LPDs Albion and Bulwark and three Goalkeepers on Illustrious and Invincible) to 'mop up' any missiles or aircraft that have survived the other systems (probably very few). As for the sub threat, the RNs reputation in ASW is second to none, the Merlin and Lynx helos are amongst the most advanced sub hunters in the world, and like US CSGs there will most likely be a couple of SSNs attached to the group to provide distant cover.:nono: :D
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
The Charles De Gaulle has definately the strongest airwing: Rafale + E-2C is a killer combo.

Carrier battle:

Kuznetsov with 1 squadron of SU-33 + Kirov + 2 Udaloy + 2 Sovremmeny + 1 Slava (i.e. the northern fleet)

Vs.

French Fleet
1 Charles De Gaulle + escorts (does anyone know about French surface ships?)

No land base assets allowed.

Sorry to be off topic, but just a little thing to note. Link to russian awacs on aviation technology site cites data which has been around since a-50's start. Since then russians have moved (as much as funding allowed them) to a-50u, yet the said website doesn't reflect any changes. Furthermore, after phalcon awacs was cancelled for china, russia offered china a new variant of a-50, which beriev is now pushing around as a-50e. It is interesting to note that china's kj-2000 has same radar in principle, 3 sided phased array, also on il-76 platform. Here is link to beriev's own website.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Sure, it still doesn't equal a modern e3 but we are in year 2006, it is absolutely expected that modern electronics can offer such capabilities.


Tortoro,

I was just trying to show how huge the gap is between the US and the rest of the world when it comes to electronic spectrum. Before, the mantra was this: To win the war in the land/sea, you must first win the war in the air. Now it has changed: To win the war in the air, you must first win the war in the electronic battlefield.

It is so hard to explain to people the gap between the US and other nations in terms of electronic warfare. They are not that flashy or are tangible. But as you saw earlier, the gap is huge and that is comparing a small (4-crewed airplane including pilots) to a full fledge russian AWACS (11-radar operators).

I am still looking for the E-3's unclassified tracking numbers. I did found this, an export version to Australia.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The MESA Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array radar is being supplied by Northrop Grumman Electronic Sensors and Systems Division, based in Baltimore. Tenix Defence Systems of Adelaide, Australia, is supplying some components and modules for the radar. MESA provides 360° coverage and a range of over 200 nautical miles. The radar has a system track capability of 3,000 targets and can track air and sea targets simultaneously. The system's variable track update rates and dedicated tracking modes allow the operator to track allied and hostile high performance aircraft while continuously scanning the area of operations.

Imagine what the capability of the radar that the US uses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Array determines range, resolution, mutliscan capabilities etc. Software (powered by adequate computing power) not only determines tracking of targets and commanding the planes but also has a hand in resolution, filtering, range, etc.
With computing power rising so fast in last decades, military is hard pressed to keep up. I would expect that wedgetail for australia has actually better capabilities than regular US awacs. Only because it is newer. Any upgraded US awacs will then leapfrog it. And so on. Advanced hawkeye is sure to be more capable than today's E3, for example.

Capability gap is always dependant on a curve. When US made its first awacs and other countries had no awacs, that gap was infinite. Then other countries made their first awacs when US was already modernizing theirs. A gap was always there but it's consequences weren't always the same. As computers take over more and more, govt sponsored apparatus is too slow to react to changes. It always changes in fairly large increments, instead of continuous rise. Furthermore, there is a practical limit of how much more useful it is tracking 100X over X number of targets.

No one is suggesting that US will be matched in tech anytime soon. But it is the nature of the technological development along a curve that signals the gap in practice is getting smaller. It will never be reached without investments bigger than what US has now, but it will get closer.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

^ Yes, the technological lead (in civilian areas also) the US once enjoyed has greatly eroded since the end of the Cold War. This is not 1960 anymore. East Asian countries in general have a high level of research and development.

If China wants to sink a CVBG from the air, it can make use of UAV's. In fact, that is probably why China is so interested in UAV's. So China would have multiple types of assets on the coastline hunting for carriers -- KJ-2000's, Y-8's, maritime patrol aircrafts, and UAV's. Send in the UAV's to confirm the location. It doesn't matter if they get shot down. Once you have a general location, assemble a strike group of Flankers and JH-7A's with ASM's. Also direct Shang class nuclear attack submarines to that location. With sufficient numbers, and a satellite constellation for communication and control (which China won't have until 2009), all these assets could launch dozens of ASM simultaneously. In that scenario, a sole CVBG would not survive, and even two CVBG's would be hurting bad -- after the initial strike.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

If China wants to sink a CVBG from the air, it can make use of UAV's

Roger, Which UAV would the PLA deploy against a CSG? The Harppy? And how many would it take to disable a USN CSG? Afterall some will be destroyed in the attack.

So China would have multiple types of assets on the coastline hunting for carriers -- KJ-2000's, Y-8's, maritime patrol aircrafts, and UAV's. Send in the UAV's to confirm the location. It doesn't matter if they get shot down. Once you have a general location, assemble a strike group of Flankers and JH-7A's with ASM's.

As you may know USN CSG's do not patrol in littoral waters. They are generally 200+ miles out to sea. Not so easy to find.

Do you feel that the PLA would be willing to lose so many assets in order to have a chance to kill a USN CSG? Of what benefit would this be to the PLA to have sacraficed so many assets.

Also direct Shang class nuclear attack submarines to that location.

Just how are the PLAN subs going to penatrate USN ASW in a real war? Not one contrived on a computer or in a war game?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

So China would have multiple types of assets on the coastline hunting for carriers -- KJ-2000's, Y-8's, maritime patrol aircrafts, and UAV's.
If the US were aware that a war time condition existed, the carrier would be well off shore and operating under very limited or no electronic emission conditions. They would also be making use of decoy positions for missiles traps. I do not think the PLAAF or PLAN in its current state, could find a US carrier strike group in such conditions without a lot of luck (something they do not want to depend on) or committing a huge force to the effort.

Send in the UAV's to confirm the location. It doesn't matter if they get shot down.
Saying this and doing it are two different things. 1st, they have to have a general location, which as I mentioned above, would be extremely difficult. Then, getting any UAV close enough to an alert carrier group is going to be a wholly different matter. Carrier based aircraft and carrier assets along the threat axis will probably ensure that no exisitng UAV would get close enough to tag the carrier itself.

Once you have a general location, assemble a strike group of Flankers and JH-7A's with ASM's.
The carrier is not going to be sitting there waiting for the enemy strike groups. Again, such a airborne enemy strike group, even if it knew the general location, would still have to aquire the exact position and then penetrate close enough to the carrier to launch their weapons. Fighter aircraft, missile traps, the AEGIS system, close in defenses, all are built to prevent this very thing. It would be playing to the absolute strength of the US carrier strike group. With literally hundreds of missiles and dozens of aircraft, and moving at a rapid pace in an erradicate course...this is an almost impossible task without committing much of the PLAN's, PLAAF, or any other nations defense assets.

I would recommend getting and reading the book,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
for a great fictional expose on this very thing. A great read and a good indication on the difficulties and cost required for such an endeavor.

Also direct Shang class nuclear attack submarines to that location.
For the same reasons, an even more difficulty task. Unless those subs happen to be in the perfect position already (very unlikely, like a needle in a haystack happening to be in the perfect position to thread a loop in a button that is tossed into the haystack), those subs are going to have to transit at high speed to have any chance of interceptring the carrier...which means they will be heard and prosecuted by the very ample carrier ant-sub forces, from the air, from the surface of the ocean, and beneath the ocean with the carrier strike group's own attack subs.

With sufficient numbers, and a satellite constellation for communication and control (which China won't have until 2009), all these assets could launch dozens of ASM simultaneously. In that scenario, a sole CVBG would not survive, and even two CVBG's would be hurting bad -- after the initial strike.
Well, they would have to have a huge number of aircraft and vessles. Any satellite assets would be dealt withg by the US Air Force's (and the US Navy's) anti-satellite capabilities...unless we are talking about a one time, surprise attack.

Dozens of missiles is probably not enough...more like scores would be required. And even if the agressor nation were capable of expending the resource and getting through to one American carrier...then they would have to deal with several carriers on the next go round but with a highly reduced number of assets of their own to contend with it. IOW, they would then pay an even more tremendous price than it already cost for getting at and damaging or destroying the one.

Unless and until a nation like China or someone else, achieves near parity in terms of numbers of carriers, escort vessels, submarines, and aircraft to committ to such an endeavor such that they can lose a large number and have enough to then face the even greater force coming to retaliate...I do not believe such a scenario will be attempted by a large nation state.

I am not saying that those conditions cannot be arrived at...just that they are not arrived at to this point, or in the near future.
 
Last edited:
Top