Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Equation

Lieutenant General
Lezt, Hendrik_2000, Air Force Brat, I just read your posts again and I wish I knew when you're right or wrong and why, but of course I don't; a thought occurred to me (and I'm sorry if anybody had posted something similar before): that missiles travels for less than two minutes before reentering the atmosphere, then decelerates (nobody told me how -- in principle it could be decelerated to subsonic speeds) and at some point the reentry vehicle has to start using the sensors to lock on the target, OK, so? So even performing the test would also help the US Navy :) (launching from the middle of China would be noticed and tracked by the US and Russia; aiming at sea with an empty, lonely ship on it, as any traffic around would have to be stopped, would likely cause an increased surveillance of the area all around, especially the airspace)

What if China just air drop the DF-21D warhead from a bomber in high altitude and test it's maneuverability from there? Do the test in segments at a time instead of the whole launch, search, reentry, maneuver, and destroy all in one?
 
Yeah but by doing this would give out the CVBG general vicinity and location? The first volley could be just a decoy missile as well, sort of a waiting for a response to see where they are. In a large vass area of ocean not too many cargo ships and commercial fishing boats had this capability, therefore diminishing the search for the CVBG to a certain area much easier to look for by satellites and drones.

Equation, I'm sorry, but I'm lost in this post of yours; what does "this" in the first sentence refer to, shooting balloons? :)
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
What is different between DF-21D and DF-21 nuclear variant.

If DF-21D can be electronically compromised, can DF-21 nuclear variants become compromised?

If nuclear variants of DF-21 and DF-21D can be compromised, isn't there no second strike capability (unless China can overwhelm them with numerical superiority or saturation attack)...

But this "electronic counter measure" seems too good to be true, because can't it also work on nuclear variants of DF-21? You can't defeat an entire nuclear force with just electronic warfare itself can you?
 
... Do the test in segments at a time instead of the whole launch, search, reentry, maneuver, and destroy all in one?

Believe me or not, that's what came to my mind after I had posted on this topic yesterday, where I mentioned three components (1. ballistic missile; 2. deceleration; 3. hitting the target): First, the part we all know: ad 1. they have the ballistic missile; ad 2. they have the space program so they sure know how to return to Earth in a controlled way :)
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3. they have plenty of sensors for Anti-Ship Missiles. Second, my guess: they are NOT going to test the whole package (I mean what's been called "end-to-end test" in recent posts here) so that the actual mission profile is NOT revealed; hope it doesn't sound like some conspiracy theory or something :)
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Good job Jura, you have demonstrated that you are a thinking man, the balloon is a "decoy" designed to "fake out" the missile as it re-enters the atmosphere, launched by a destroyer defending the CBG, the missile would lock-on to the decoy, and the carrier and escorts would take evasive action moving away at Flank. If you read it in the Air Force Magazine, it is peer reviewed, and the readers would also be incensed as the audience for AFM are mostly retired/active duty Air Force, who are members of the Air Force Association, they do not tolerate "feel good articles". In truth people would like to defend the viability of their future weapons, and don't want to contemplate that their potential adversaries might have an effective counter.. perhaps bd or Jeff might weigh in on the viability of the decoy???? brat

Brat, peer reviewed or not doesn't make it more truthful. Manhanism was only dead after pearl harbor and the 2nd world war; you talk to any navel college or admirals about air power dominating navel combat prior to those events would be heresy. Or should I cite Kalingol and Poland for the same about blitzkrieg? Or even earlier, about flexible roman legions system against rigid hellenistic heavy infantry system prior to the latter being crushed in the mecedonian wars?

We should not dismiss these peer reviewers as they do have their merits, and without doubt; bias.

What is critical of the article is its distortion of probabilities. Yes, any system can fail. To hit a ship with a Mach 10 warhead is hard, it requires a lot of support system that are vulnerable to interception/influence. The same is true the other way round, to fool an indepth array of sensors to locate a CVBG is hard, to have sufficient EW to hide it or to deter incoming missiles is hard; to intercept such missile is very hard.

Yet, the article is willing to believe that the advantage lays with the CVBG because of some perceived superiority in material and people is a bias. This is a classical armor vs gun debate, it is always easier to build a bigger gun to overcome armor than to build better armor, active or passive to defeat the incoming munition. How much did it cost the mujihadeen to build a bigger IED to overcome the 2 billion USD mine resistant vehicles the US used? well a 2 kg mine to a 10 kg mine doesn't cost that much.

I am not against the US. Just think about it this way, if the pentagon state that they have developed a anti ship ballistic missile based on the trident, would you dismiss this missile to a Russian CABG sailing to Cuba because the warhead can be intercepted and the Sovs can deploy balloon decoys?

Prowing the south china sea within the 1st island chain are 22 modern Chinese DDs currently, 45 modern FG, 100+ missile boats, 400+ 4 gen fighters, a dozen AEW&C planes, 30+ radar stations at the coast, a sonar chain under the SCS, with about 70 satellite launches we can be quite sure that coverage of the SCS exist. The area is also covered by a thousands of long range anti ship cruise missiles.

Simply put, quantity have a quality of its own. how many missiles can a CVBG intercept before running out of countermeasures? how many incoming missiles can be intercepted at the same time? how many radar system can strike platforms (and by its nature attrition) take out before the missile director systems becomes impotent?

It is a war of economics as well, lets say a DF21D cost 10 million USD a piece? the nimitz is 4.5 billion USD per hull san aircraft. each aircraft it carries costs 67 million USD a piece, each DDG in the CVBG cost ~1 billion USD san missiles it carry. Can a CVBG take a 450 (just the equivalent cost of the carrier itself) missile strike and be sure to walk away? Can someone launch a coordinated 450 missile strike? I don't know. But the fact of war is that there will not be a single missile incoming missile as the article suggests; especially since Russian anti CVBG tactics of the 80s-90s was already to swarm one with 200-300 anti ship missiles. Nor would they be used alone, sure, if the CVBG is violently evading incoming missiles and is successful, how much of a CAP can it have when the wave of strike aircraft arrives after the last missile have landed?

We don't know the full capbility of each, it is only stupid that the article is so readily willing to dismiss its potential of the missile.
 

Zhifu

New Member
Registered Member
brave men and there proud simulators. Any military system has to be tested simply going though the motions is not enough. At this point DF21D is a hypothetical danger. A actual launch is needed. And that's a fact. We can argue possibility's for years decades even but a single successful test puts the argument to bed.
believing doesn't mean its real.or that its ready for prime time. In the Vietnam skies theory said sparrow missiles render north Vietnamese fighter aircraft as targets to be swatted from the sky. Practice proved this as bull. History repeats this over and over again. Theory says golden practice says fools gold.

and as time goes by another factor becomes more and more critical that being that as the PLA second art develops DF21D the US DOD has placed a emphasis on counter ballistic missile systems. Not just because of the Chinese, the Iranians claim to have there own Carrier killers and its likely others with ballistic missile technology will try and follow suit.
so the longer the PLA keeps its claims the more likely the system may be render mute.
now some will argue "but they can't test against DF21D" and your right but then the opposite also holds true. There is no proof that a DF21D is undefeatable either.

If it keeps carriers 1000 miles away without testing then it has done its job with or without testing.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Air Force Brat: I'm still very careful with you! ... but thanks :)

That's fine Jura, Paul commended the Bereans for checking him out, I do issue apologies and corrections when I am wrong, I do call good post when someone else gets it right, whether I agree or not. Just like I commended you for actually reading the article, the Air Force Magazine is a stellar source, far beyond the "hearsay" that some others offer as references.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
If it keeps carriers 1000 miles away without testing then it has done its job with or without testing.

Actually Zhifu, threats tend to bring more US Carriers with a full battle group, for anyone to launch on a US CVN would result in an overwhelming response, but don't take my word for it, could somebody get lucky??? sure, but don't think that would be the end, but only the beginning of your trouble, but again, don't take my word for it, I'm just an old Air Force Brat!
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Actually Zhifu, threats tend to bring more US Carriers with a full battle group, for anyone to launch on a US CVN would result in an overwhelming response, but don't take my word for it, could somebody get lucky??? sure, but don't think that would be the end, but only the beginning of your trouble, but again, don't take my word for it, I'm just an old Air Force Brat!

That's what nukes are for, to equalize the huge disparity of conventional force. The reason why NK is so feverishly developing ICBMs and Russia is keeping up its huge stock pile deterrents. So would the US park 11 CVBG around Russia or China? The question is always how much war each side is willing to stomach, and if the ante keeps raising, it will only end in MAD.
 
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