Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

leibowitz

Junior Member
That's a specious argument. Carriers cannot remain stealthed once they start launching attacks. They might be able to slip into position (even then, that's far from a sure thing), but if they want to do anything, they're gonna have to reveal themselves.

That's not true. A carrier can just tell its fighters where it will be going in the next three hours before the pilots take off, and once the fighters are done hitting their targets, they drop below the radar horizon, vector back to the general predicted location of the carrier, and find the carrier with their AESA radars operating at minimum power (it shouldn't be hard to find a massive ship at close range), which means the ESM won't pick up any emissions at all from the fighter group.

EDIT: The implication of this, of course, is that a carrier can run strikes against fixed targets in complete radio silence. E-2D AWACS planes will be only 'broadcasting' units active in the entire fleet, and while they indicate a carrier in proximity, that's a very relative term, as they can loiter for hours at locations hundreds of km from the carrier itself.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
That's not true. A carrier can just tell its fighters where it will be going in the next three hours before the pilots take off, and once the fighters are done hitting their targets, they drop below the radar horizon, vector back to the general predicted location of the carrier, and find the carrier with their AESA radars operating at minimum power (it shouldn't be hard to find a massive ship at close range), which means the ESM won't pick up any emissions at all from the fighter group.

Meanwhile, Chinese subs will be prowling the area, stealth UAVs will be tailing the retreating fighters, intel officers will be calculating the approach vectors of the fighters and monitoring communications to determine likely locations to point their satellites.

Oh, and you'd better hope the carrier group isn't forced to change their planned rendez-vous point.
 

leibowitz

Junior Member
Meanwhile, Chinese subs will be prowling the area, stealth UAVs will be tailing the retreating fighters, intel officers will be calculating the approach vectors of the fighters and monitoring communications to determine likely locations to point their satellites.

Oh, and you'd better hope the carrier group isn't forced to change their planned rendez-vous point.

Meanwhile, USN and JMSDF ASW will be combing the area, stealth fighters will be popping stealth UAVs for breakfast (it's called combat air patrol), and the CVBG staff will be monitoring satellite orbits to determine which set of clouds they should be hiding under next.

Oh, and the carrier group can change the rendezvous point--they just have to pass two or three or four different ones to the fighters themselves using a one-time codebook, and the AWACS then shoots a brevity code them on the way home--say something like "Sierra Echo Seven", which tells OPFOR nothing.

This isn't to discount the Chinese toolkit--it's just saying that using it to nail down a USN CVBG is not at all easy and not at all guaranteed--at least not at this point in time. Maybe later, with more assets and training, but not today.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Meanwhile, USN and JMSDF ASW will be combing the area, stealth fighters will be popping stealth UAVs for breakfast (it's called combat air patrol), and the CVBG staff will be monitoring satellite orbits to determine which set of clouds they should be hiding under next.

Oh, and the carrier group can change the rendezvous point--they just have to pass two or three or four different ones to the fighters themselves using a one-time codebook, and the AWACS then shoots a brevity code them on the way home--say something like "Sierra Echo Seven", which tells OPFOR nothing.

This isn't to discount the Chinese toolkit--it's just saying that using it to nail down a USN CVBG is not at all easy and not at all guaranteed--at least not at this point in time. Maybe later, with more assets and training, but not today.

Any support ship and fighter screen activity still need to be centered on a base, whether that's a land base or a carrier. Such activity patterns will inevitably reveal the location of the base. If a sub encounters an ASW, then it's a pretty good bet that there's a fleet nearby. All the Chinese have to do then is to sweep the area with their satellites. Even if the satellites are down, they can send in a squad of stealth fighters. All it takes is a position fix on the CVBG and the AShBMs can come hammering down.

Any maneuver that tries to keep up the stealth of the CVBG will necessarily come at the expense of attack power. Fighters will need to make shorter and more frequent runs to compensate for the CVBG running around all over the map. And what happens if the Chinese jam the area so that the fighter pilots can't receive their rendez-vous code?
 

leibowitz

Junior Member
Any support ship and fighter screen activity still need to be centered on a base, whether that's a land base or a carrier. Such activity patterns will inevitably reveal the location of the base. If a sub encounters an ASW, then it's a pretty good bet that there's a fleet nearby. All the Chinese have to do then is to sweep the area with their satellites. Even if the satellites are down, they can send in a squad of stealth fighters. All it takes is a position fix on the CVBG and the AShBMs can come hammering down.

What you just described is basically how I played my fleet command scenario in the SCS Fleet Command thread--but that thread was set in 2020-2023 lol. As the Chinese side, I conserved my two CVBGs until I was certain Kadena and Naha were down, then sent them after the JMSDF. I kept the USN at bay with a sub + UAV grid deployed in 100nm intervals, and if I spotted anything that resembled a carrier I immediately called in J-20s running recon loadouts to spot for DF-21Ds or other J-20s armed with YJ-12 strike missiles.

There were four issues I ran across: first, per-sortie attrition rates amongst the J-20 recon and strike teams was atrocious. Second, DF-21Ds are a one-shot weapon; ammo stockpiles for them aren't infinite. Third, that UAV/sub grid gets blown up pretty fast by the USN; those poor bastards in the subs are literally there to die so I know where to aim the PLAAF and 2nd Artillery. All of those issues compounded with the fourth problem, which was that often I'd find out that 'carrier' I sank was actually a cargo ship or oil tanker.


Any maneuver that tries to keep up the stealth of the CVBG will necessarily come at the expense of attack power. Fighters will need to make shorter and more frequent runs to compensate for the CVBG running around all over the map. And what happens if the Chinese jam the area so that the fighter pilots can't receive their rendez-vous code?

This doesn't mean it's easy for the USN to hide: it's tough for them, too. My gaming buddy who played as the US side is going to Northwestern on a NROTC scholarship and graduating into the Office of Naval Intelligence this June, so I assume he knows what he's doing. He had to run AWACS out at distant vectors and shuttle flight stations at the outer limits of combat ranges, to make it look like the carrier was somewhere it wasn't; doing that cut down on his sortie rate (by a lot) and also cut down on the loiter time of his CAP, and it made ASW hell for him because he had to sweep the "right" areas of ocean while sweeping enough of the "wrong" areas to keep me guessing. Add on top of this the 'fighter sweeps' of J-11s and J-16s I could throw at him to wear down his AWACS/ASW helos/CAP, and it was a very grim battle indeed.

The likeliest outcomes were that multiple USN ships would be sunk (including possibly one, two, or even three carriers), the CAP would be depleted, J-20s would be depleted, most Chinese OTH radar sites would be gone, and both sides would call it a day and go home. If the US side was lucky, they could nail an airbase or two, but that was usually exceptionally difficult. OTH radars were much easier to hit because those sites are stationary, very very 'loud' from an electromagnetic perspective, and fragile.

Overally, the C4ISR strain in a high-intensity naval shootout is enormous. Even in the greatly simplified C4ISR model of SCS Fleet Command, my buddy and I had difficulty controlling all our assets properly. I think the PLAN/PLAAF will need to do some serious training to actually get all their tools to work together in the 'right' way. The current quantity and quality of exercises that they're doing is simply not enough to cut it, IMO.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Let me Sum Up Solarz response to any next Counter Argument. CHINA WIN.

The fact that american radios use Anti Jamming Wave forms is nonsense too him. The fact that the most Effective AWS platform in the American Formation would be A 688I or A Virginia and could kill Chinese Subs before they could Communicate back to base Is impossible. Buddy Stores Allowing Fighters to tanker is besides the point. basically He is going too tout nationalism beyond logic and reason.
 

leibowitz

Junior Member
Let me Sum Up Solarz response to any next Counter Argument. CHINA WIN.

The fact that american radios use Anti Jamming Wave forms is nonsense too him.

I think most military radios use Anti-Jamming Waveforms.

The fact that the most Effective AWS platform in the American Formation would be A 688I or A Virginia and could kill Chinese Subs before they could Communicate back to base Is impossible.

That's actually not true--Chinese SSKs are very, very quiet and, if simply lurking on battery power, are as quiet as a Virginia. The only advantage the USN has is more advanced sonars. But even so, Chinese passive arrays could definitely find a 688i first, and it would be a 60/40 at most for the Virginia/Seawolf, depending on sea states and thermal layers.

The most effective ASW weapon is good C4I between the subs, the DDGs, and a couple of MH-60s/P-3s (if operating within range of Kadena or Andersen).

Buddy Stores Allowing Fighters to tanker is besides the point.

That's an emergency option that rarely gets used in a high-intensity situation. When the BVR missiles are flying everywhere, no sane pilot is going to slow down to 220 knots and line up behind his friend, doubling their combined radar signature, to get a drink of fuel.

basically He is going too tout nationalism beyond logic and reason.

Not to be anal-retentive, but you've been pretty nationalistic in this thread too. We should all take a deep breath here.
 
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leibowitz

Junior Member
In this vein, the best exercises China could do right now would be to run mock raids from the Liaoning against PLAAF airbases/DF-21D sites and vice versa. Run these raids at night, at day, and in heavy sea states; run these raids with partial or even total comms and radar blackouts; run these raids with possibly cyberattacks against C4I infrastructure; and then graduate to running 'counter-raids' with the PLAAF/2nd Art going out to try and 'hunt down' a carrier past the 1st island chain (although this will require the PLAAF to get more tanker aircraft online; it'll provide valuable training for long-range air ops.)
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
at the current tech and military level of china. The odds favor US, not only US has alot assest in that region+allies to asset US navy, but US survilliance, counter Survilliance, EW, experience, search/destroy, ammount of quality hardware are all rank in top. not that CVBG is impossible to fina/track in real time, it just very diffcult due to above reason.
 
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