Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Have you accounted for the satellites being spoofed and misdirected via electronic countermeasures? That is a factor you know.

The game of arrow and shield has been going on for eternity For every shield they will find better arrow. I am certain they are aware of it and how to counter it
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Have you accounted for the satellites being spoofed and misdirected via electronic countermeasures? That is a factor you know.

Have you considered the engineers who worked on detection methods would already have considered electronic countermeasures? That is a factor, you know.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I am well aware of the capabilities of modern satellites. I am also aware of the capabilities of USN and other navies capabilities. As I said, the Ocean is a large place and finding a CBG is not going to be the easy task many on this board envision it as.

Even if the CV were making the wakes?
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

modern radar or optical sensor didn't evolve as fast as the electronic that process it.
Actually, radar and optical sensor evolve just as fast. Reality flies in the face of your claim.

it doesn't matter using active radar or sensor in the visible spectrum, its still a tough job to find a particular group of ship in the vast ocean. there are tons ships, EM signals etc in that vast area.
Actually, it matters, a lot. Radars don't operate in the visible spectrum, that's why cloud deck isn't a concern. Satellites with SAR steer their beams actively just like any other AESA radar does, and the beam can be adjusted to cover large area or provide high-resolution imagery for a specific spot. EM signals will be picked up by ELINT satellites.

currentl gen SAR doesn't have the resolution needed to detect/id ships. most SAR are use for mapping etc.
This is wrong. Civilian SARs that are only meant for mapping do not have the capability to detect/id ships. Not so for military SARs. In fact, some AESA radars fitted to modern aircraft are doubled as SARs with battlefield mapping and target tracking simultaneously.
 
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s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Actually, radar and optical sensor evolve just as fast. Reality flies in the fact of your claim.

i doubt it, i work in these field, and i can assure you, although radar/optical sensor evolved, but its not compareble to mircochips. capability of processor double every two yr, not so true for optical IR or radar

Actually, it matters, a lot. Radars don't operate in the visible spectrum, that's why cloud deck isn't a concern. Satellites with SAR steer their beams actively just like any other AESA radar does, and the beam can be adjusted to cover large area or provide high-resolution imagery for a specific spot. EM signals will be picked up by ELINT satellites.

for spaceborane SAR that cover alot area, it won't able to detect ships due to limited resolutions. its same when you use a high res camera say 20Mpixel, take a picture of you 1 mile away vs you stand 10ft from camera. most SAR use for earth mapping. detecting, identify, tracking of a Carrier is much more diffcult

This is wrong. Civilian SARs that are only meant for mapping do not have the capability to detect/id ships. Not so for military SARs. In fact, some AESA radars fitted to modern aircraft are doubled as SARs with battlefield mapping and target tracking simultaneously.

in the end is about coverage vs resolution. if you want cover alot area quickly you lose the resolution. aircraft SAR use in battlefield has narrow coverage and high resolution. but when you put satelite SAR 200km above earth atomsphere and try to cover thousands sq mile of coean in a short time with all sort of ships, planes, EM/RF signal from variety of source, plus JAMING from US navy, its different.

As just mentioned, a fundamental parameter of SAR imagery is the resolution. Maritime
surveillance generally involves a trade off between resolution and coverage. See for
instance the article on Radarsat SAR mode selection for marine applications by Vachon
and Olsen, [131]. Higher resolution allows for higher probabilities of detection, especially
for smaller ships, but it comes at the cost of narrower swath widths and longer revisit
times.

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also in alot cases military sensor don't evolve as fast as civilian ones. for example one of the reason IR sensor don't evolve as fast as optical sensor because not too many civilian use IR camera/sensor, but we see resolution/optical lens evolve from 1MP to 20MP pretty fast. just because its military sensor it does NOT mean its better than current gen civilian counterparts. many of the US missiles are developed in the 70's, with 70's electronics, radar etc. because custom build is MUCH more expensive than off-shelf product found in commerical sectors, and it doesn't mean the custom build one is better.
 
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Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

in the end is about coverage vs resolution. if you want cover alot area quickly you lose the resolution. aircraft SAR use in battlefield has narrow coverage and high resolution. but when you put satelite SAR 200km above earth atomsphere and try to cover thousands sq mile of coean in a short time with all sort of ships, planes, EM/RF signal from variety of sourc plus JAMING from US navy, its different.

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Actually, resolution isn't a problem here. SARs that use narrow beam and high resolution are for detecting targets such as tanks or "small ships". Aircraft carrier is huge, which justifies the use of low resolution, allowing large area can be scanned quickly. Jamming signal will be detected by ELINT satellites, but ultimately needs to be countered by redundancies of multiple satellites. China will need to keep on launching Earth observation satellites.

also in alot cases military sensor don't evolve as fast as civilian ones. for example one of the reason IR sensor don't evolve as fast as optical sensor because not too many civilian use IR camera/sensor, but we see resolution/optical lens evolve from 1MP to 20MP pretty fast. just because its military sensor it does NOT mean its better than current gen civilian counterparts. many of the US missiles are developed in the 70's, with 70's electronics, radar etc. because custom build is MUCH more expensive than off-shelf product found in commerical sectors, and it doesn't mean the custom build one is better.
Military radars are built with capabilities that civilian radars don't need. In the case of SARs, civilian version doesn't require the ability to detect/track moving targets, where as military version does. And as I have pointed out already, SARs are used on modern day battlefield for both mapping and detection/tracking of targets, showing your claim that SARs cannot detect/id ships as being false.

If there is one area that military sensors are better than civilian ones, it would definitely be in the field of radars. There is no such thing as civilian equivalents of APG-77 or SPY-1D radars. :rolleyes:
 
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s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Actually, resolution isn't a problem here. SARs that use narrow beam and high resolution are for detecting targets such as tanks or "small ships". Aircraft carrier is huge, which justifies the use of low resolution, allowing large area can be scanned quickly. Anything that is half the size isn't worth detecting anyway. Jamming signal will be detected by ELINT satellites, but ultimately needs to be countered by redundancies of multiple satellites. China will need to keep on launching Earth observation satellites.

resolution is a problem for any image sensor vs distance/area, there are more oil tankers, ships on the sea than a single carrier. in the radar image, you don't see the image of ship, you only see a spot. you are try to detect something in a million square mile area. when using narrow area SAR and high resolution, this mean revist, longer time. so basically divide a million square mile into thousands grid, and search each grid one by one. take long time, alot other ships in the area that are also big, also carrier is a moving target, which mean when you searching grid 2, the ship might already move to grid 1 from adjacent grid


Military radars are built with capabilities that civilian radars don't need. In the case of SARs, civilian version doesn't require the ability to detect/track moving targets, where as military version does. And as I have pointed out already, SARs are used on modern day battlefield for both mapping and detection/tracking of targets, showing your claim that SARs cannot detect/id ships as being false.

If there is one area that military sensors are better than civilian ones, it would definitely be in the field of radars. There is no such thing as civilian equivalents of APG-77 or SPY-1D radars. :rolleyes:

when you photo something a mile away with your ultra-high resolution camera, can you identify that object easily? its same with radar image, when SAR detect ship, its not a clear image, the ship will only occupy a few pixels, not enough to identify a carrier or a big oil tanker, and there are alot these spot on a radar image.
battlefield airborane SAR has less coverage than million square mile of ocean. it also much slower to scan an area, identify, track vs high coverage earth mapping SAR.

all the custom build product use by military are usually decade lag from commerical product. all the electronic use by military for radar image processing, missile guidance are very old.

for example the new aargm missile electronic/system is outdated compare to today standard.
 
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s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

if you still think detect, identify, tracking carrier is easy. please do this experiment.
throw vary sizes of small object in an large area, then throw an similar size object randomly in that large area, this object is the one you want to detect/ID/track. now separete this large area into several grid, walk far far away, let your friends move these object around to simulate movement of ships, then use your camera take pictures of each grid. now you need to detect all these obejects on your camera via image processing, then you need identify which one is the correct object, then need to track it. its hard enough if object is stationary but moving objects.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

when you photo something a mile away with your ultra-high resolution camera, can you identify that object easily? its same with radar image, when SAR detect ship, its not a clear image, the ship will only occupy a few pixels, not enough to identify a carrier or a big oil tanker, and there are alot these spot on a radar image.
battlefield airborane SAR has less coverage than million square mile of ocean. it also much slower to scan an area, identify, track vs high coverage earth mapping SAR.
Can ships be detected? The answer is yes. Once the ships are detected, narrow beam can then be used to rescan the targets for identification. This might be done by the same satellite after the initial scan took place, or by a different satellites later on flying over the same area. There is no black-or-white requirement that you the entire system must use only one scan setting.

all the custom build product use by military are usually decade lag from commerical product. all the electronic use by military for radar image processing, missile guidance are very old.

for example the new aargm missile electronic/system is outdated compare to today standard.
You are being off tangent here. This isn't about whether civilian electronic is more advanced. This is about capabilities, and capabilities that civilian don't need of course won't appear on a civilian platform. You cannot use this as a proof and say that the same thing cannot exist on a military platform. Likewise, capabilities that military doesn't need aren't going to be found on military platform. If a micro-controller is sufficed in control and guidance of an air-to-air missile, then you don't put in a quad-core processor just because you can.

While many electronic devices in the civilian sectors are more modern, this isn't really applicable to radars. Once again, there is no equivalents in the civilian sector for items such as APG-77 and SPY-1D. If you meant that the electronics components used in radar is behind, then this is shaky at best because now days military stress the use of commercial off-the-shelf components.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

if you still think detect, identify, tracking carrier is easy. please do this experiment.
throw vary sizes of small object in an large area, then throw an similar size object randomly in that large area, this object is the one you want to detect/ID/track. now separete this large area into several grid, walk far far away, let your friends move these object around to simulate movement of ships, then use your camera take pictures of each grid. now you need to detect all these obejects on your camera via image processing, then you need identify which one is the correct object, then need to track it. its hard enough if object is stationary but moving objects.

First of all, there isn't only one camera. With multiple cameras, one can scan while others look at objects to objects for identification purposes. Or, you can have multiple cameras doing scans, and have each zooms in for identification as a target is detected. As for tracking, there is no need for tracking of every moving targets, just those that look like a carrier or escorts.

I would appreciate it if instead of asking me to do silly thought-experiments, you first think about the reverse situation -- that USN has to search for China's battle group, and ask yourself how would USN solves the issues that you claim China will encounter.
 
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