Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head said:

As to your you analogy of the parking lot...make the cap with reflective metal on it 1/2" in diameter...then have someone use material and other capabilities to mask the reflection...then make the parking lot 20 square miles in size...and at the same time place other similar caps of various sizes and various reflectivity in various places on that parking lot...and then have storms of various intensities going over the parking lot, and have the sensor that's looking for the reflection located 10 miles above the parking lot above the cloud deck.

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To elaborate on your analogy, let's have a dozen targets moving in "close proximity". By this, I mean that a particular square mile has many more targets than the other squares. The dozen of targets are also moving at higher speed than the rest, and moving against the wind (wind can be detected by satellite as well). These three properties already narrow down potential warships belonging to a CVBG group. It so happens that the wavelength of the spot light can penetrate cloud deck easily, so clouds aren't a concern. Likewise, storms, made up of clouds, aren't a concern unless there are huge amount of lighting.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

As a point of reality, the Chinese still have not launched the active radar satellites that would be needed to locate the carrier battlegroup. Further, the Soviet Union had the most advanced ocean surveillance system of any ocean power and it remains unsurpassed even today. The Soviet satellites were powered by nuclear reactors because that type of power was needed to provide strong requirements for the satellite radars. My understanding is that the Chinese have not launched any nuclear powered satellites into earth orbit

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

NikeX said:

As a point of reality, the Chinese still have not launched the active radar satellites that would be needed to locate the carrier battlegroup.

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lol, where have you been? They have quite a few as part of the Gaoyang series.

NikeX said:

Further, the Soviet Union had the most advanced ocean surveillance system of any ocean power and it remains unsurpassed even today. The Soviet satellites were powered by nuclear reactors because that type of power was needed to provide strong requirements for the satellite radars. My understanding is that the Chinese have not launched any nuclear powered satellites into earth orbit.

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Soviet Union didn't have access to SAR satellites. Also, some of the world's run entirely on solar power and batteries. Nice attempt at .

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Engineer said:

To elaborate on your analogy, let's have a dozen targets moving in "close proximity". By this, I mean that a particular square mile has many more targets than the other squares. The dozen of targets are also moving at higher speed than the rest, and moving against the wind (wind can be detected by satellite as well). These three properties already narrow down potential warships belonging to a CVBG group. It so happens that the wavelength of the spot light can penetrate cloud deck easily, so clouds aren't a concern. Likewise, storms, made up of clouds, aren't a concern unless there are huge amount of lighting.

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Storms with lots of lightning, and lots of precipitation.

Cetrtain atmospheric conditions that can be taken advantage of.

Hard coatings, soft "coatings", electrical charges of varying types, emmissions of varying types and strengths to negate certain characteristics being looked for, but which may not be detected by the sensor, various decoys...all sorts of things like these and more which are too classified to mention.

Engineer, you can believe whatever you want. The fact is that the job of finding a carrier battle group on the high seas in a war time scenario is not an easy task even with current satellite and sensing technology. Very much a hit or miss affair.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

NikeX said:

As a point of reality, the Chinese still have not launched the active radar satellites that would be needed to locate the carrier battlegroup. Further, the Soviet Union had the most advanced ocean surveillance system of any ocean power and it remains unsurpassed even today. The Soviet satellites were powered by nuclear reactors because that type of power was needed to provide strong requirements for the satellite radars. My understanding is that the Chinese have not launched any nuclear powered satellites into earth orbit

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Why do you need nuclear power satellite to begin with when you have solar panel?
No need. You didn't keep up with this thread apparently
China did launch Yaogan 9 A constellation of 3 small satellite Similar to NOSS( Naval Ocean Surveillance Satellite) Specially to track Electromagnetic wave Sigint/Elint
I mean CBG is noisy electromagnetic environment that give tell tale characteristic of CBG like the constant CAP

No Soviet Satellite surveillance is today backward compare to Chinese one. 30 years is an eternity in the development of modern electronic
Synthetic Aperture Radar first launch in 1978 . Soviet one probably even latter The bulk of Soviet satellite was launch in 1980 before she implode
The US even express concern about the deterioration of Russian surveillance system can accidentally trigger false alarm. ADD to that the string of failure in recent launches(4 failure) tell you that soviet space capability is deteriorating



Synthetic-aperture radar was first used by NASA on JPL's Seasat oceanographic satellite in 1978 (this mission also carried an altimeter and a scatterometer); it was later developed more extensively on the Spaceborne Imaging Radar (SIR) missions on the space shuttle in 1981, 1984 and 1994. The Cassini mission to Saturn is currently using SAR to map the surface of the planet's major



Type: Remote-sensing small satellite constellation
No. of satellites: 3 (YG-9A/B/C)
Orbit: LEO
Contractor: China SpaceSat Co. Ltd. / CAST
Launch time: 12:55 Beijing Time (04:55 GMT), 5 March 2010
Launch centre: Jiuquan Satellite Launch Centre
Launch vehicle: Changzheng 4C
Yaogan 9 (Source: Chinese Internet)

The Yaogan 9, launched in March 2010, was reported to be a satellite constellation similar to the U.S. Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS) / Whitecloud. It consists of three small satellites, Yaogan 9A, B, and C, flying in close proximity on a 63.4° inclination orbit. The contractor is China SpaceSat Co.Ltd., a commercial entity wholly owned by the China Academy of Space Technology (CAST).

The Yaogan 9 constellation, which comprises the electro-optical surveillance satellite, the synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellite, and possibly the electronic/signal intelligence (ELINT/SIGINT) satellite, was designed for locating and tracking foreign warships, in particular aircraft carrier battle groups (ACBG), by collecting the ships’ optical and radio electronic signatures. Combined with other systems such as maritime surveillance satellites and data relay satellites, the constellation could provide an over-the-horizon reconnaissance and target designation capability for China’s maritime strike forces, such as the anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) system.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head said:

Storms with lots of lightning, and lots of precipitation.

Cetrtain atmospheric conditions that can be taken advantage of.

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Yes. I'm sure hiding underneath a , especially one with lots of lightning and precipitation, will not seriously hamper the capability of a CVBG.

Jeff Head said:

Hard coatings, soft "coatings", electrical charges of varying types, emmissions of varying types and strengths to negate certain characteristics being looked for, but which may not be detected by the sensor, various decoys...all sorts of things like these and more which are too classified to mention.

Engineer, you can believe whatever you want. The fact is that the job of finding a carrier battle group on the high seas in a war time scenario is not an easy task even with current satellite and sensing technology. Very much a hit or miss affair.

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I can understand that CVBG is a touchy subject, but by no mean it is undetectable as you made it out to be. You can believe whatever you want, but radar satellites coupled with sophisticated signal processing software, hardware that are immensely more powerful compared to the Soviet days, means it is no easy tasks to hide a huge target like a carrier even with countermeasures in place. It is a huge leap in logic to claim that Soviet couldn't do something perfectly with worse equipments therefore it is impossible to do it at all 30 years later.

Obviously, China will have to continue to launch more satellites to achieve coverage with no gaps and provide redundancy against countermeasures, but it is an undeniable fact that the system for detection of CVBG is taking shape providing initial capabilities, and this system consists of much more than just satellites. This is in agreement with Admiral Willard's statement about ASBM being in IOC.

And to use your own argument: the capability of a CVBG to hide is not proven to work until there has been a test under realistic scenarios. So unless there is an exercise where a CVBG is to go against 10% of US detection assets that are on full alert, then everything you've said so far is based on paper and by your own words "not operational".

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

"That's why there are satellites carrying Synthetic Aperture Radar. These are giant AESA radars in the sky capable of rapidly scanning large area in a short amount of time. An example is the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission[/url], where a single sensor scans all the Earth surface between 60°S and 60°N latitude in just 11 days."



Notice the search time quoted here is 11 DAYS. Much can happen in 11 days. Plus the carrier is moving and the satellite is moving. Other sources would be needed to maintain a positive track on a carrier that is hiding among other large vessels in the area. And it should be understood that to a SAR satellite, a large super tanker with its large flat deck provides a radar return that looks very much like a carrier. If a carrier is sailing in known shipping lanes and broadcasting a commercial signature it would be hard to distinguish the carrier from a large commercial vessel

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Engineer said:

Yes. I'm sure hiding underneath a

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, especially one with lots of lightning and precipitation, will not seriously hamper the capability of a CVBG.

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The CBG does its work when it gets in close and in range of the target. Any condition to help it get there will be utilized.

Engineer said:

It is a huge leap in logic to claim that Soviet couldn't do something perfectly with worse equipments therefore it is impossible to do it at all 30 years later.

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I never did say the technology was as good...but the Russians were very good with what they had and had a lot of more operational experience than the PLAN....decades of it.

Engineer said:

And to use your own argument: the capability of a CVBG to hide is not proven to work until there has been a test under realistic scenarios. So unless there is an exercise where a CVBG is to go against 10% of US detection assets that are on full alert, then everything you've said so far is based on paper and by your own words "not operational".

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You are making a bad assupmtion if you think the US has not tested these capabilities against state of the art detection capabilities. They have, and continually improve them. That sort of a test is not like firing a missile out over sea lanes to test its ability to hit a target. No need for maritime warnings or getting clear. Also not easy to detect when the tests are conducted.

The US conducts these tests regularly with no need to put out marritime warning regarding the same...and believe me when I tell you it is fully operational, including many, many tests at sea.

As I said, finding one is not easy...not easy at all.

I have never said they couldn't be found, nor have I ever said that hiding them is easy. It's not. It costs a lot of investment, testing and exercises which the US conducts regularly. I just indicated that it's a hit or miss affair to find one because of all of that investment which is continually improving...that's all.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

You asked: "Why do you need nuclear power satellite to begin with when you have solar panel?"

Answer: The nuclear source provided the power needed for the radar. The radar must be powerful to be useful in finding ships. Check out the Russian ROSAT satellite system . Plus radar ocean surveillance satellites have to be launched into low earth orbit to be effective. A large solar array would impart drag on the satellite and cause its orbit to decay and have to be replaced many times to maintain coverage. The Russian solution was to use nuclear power. See the quote below:

"Radar Ocean Reconnaissance SATellite or RORSAT is the western name given to the Soviet Upravlyaemyj Sputnik Aktivnyj (Управляемый Спутник Активный) (US-A) satellites. These satellites were launched between 1967 and 1988 to monitor NATO and merchant vessels using active radar. RORSATs were launched under the cover name of Cosmos (Kosmos) satellites.
Because a return signal from a target illuminated by a radar transmitter diminishes as the inverse of the fourth power of the distance, for the surveillance radar to work effectively, RORSATs had to be placed in low earth orbit. Had they used large solar panels for power, the orbit would have rapidly decayed due to drag through the upper atmosphere. Further, the satellite would have been useless in the shadow of earth. Hence the majority of RORSATs carried type BES-5 nuclear reactors fuelled by uranium-235. Normally the nuclear reactor cores were ejected into high orbit (a so-called "disposal orbit") at the end of the mission, but there were several failure incidents, some of which resulted in radioactive material re-entering the Earth's atmosphere.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

NikeX said:

"That's why there are satellites carrying Synthetic Aperture Radar. These are giant AESA radars in the sky capable of rapidly scanning large area in a short amount of time. An example is the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission[/url], where a single sensor scans all the Earth surface between 60°S and 60°N latitude in just 11 days."



Notice the search time quoted here is 11 DAYS. Much can happen in 11 days. Plus the carrier is moving and the satellite is moving. Other sources would be needed to maintain a positive track on a carrier that is hiding among other large vessels in the area. And it should be understood that to a SAR satellite, a large super tanker with its large flat deck provides a radar return that looks very much like a carrier. If a carrier is sailing in known shipping lanes and broadcasting a commercial signature it would be hard to distinguish the carrier from a large commercial vessel

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Again you are shooting from the hip without thinking. China has 70 satellite up in the space of with 28 is dedicated military satellite .Using relay and communication satellite they work in tandem. Passing on the information from one satellite to the other. That is the reason of this Hagt and Durnin study . Using simulation software and knowing the number of satellite They can predict that China can do surveillance on on a spot for 5 hr out of 24hr. Enough for IOC.Though this study is based on 2010 data which already outdated because China has launch 20 more satellites since then .As the number of the satellite grow so do the coverage.