Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Exactly, and here's what he had to say in more detail:



Even the Chinese are admitting it is not operational and facing serious bottlenecks and difficulties in getting there. Sounds like it is still a good distance away...if they pull it off at all.

Taiwan intelligence chief independently confirm the the deployment of DF 21D
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I wouldn't read too much in Gen Chen statement. He is not specific with what he meant with bottle neck.

He is probably just being modest and polite not to upstage Mike Mullen visit and unnecessarily alarm US.

He also said this

“The missile is still undergoing experimental testing and will be used as a defensive weapon when it is successfully developed, not an offensive one,” Chen says. “It is a high-tech weapon and we face many difficulties in getting funding, advanced technologies and high-quality personnel, which are all underlying reasons why it is hard to develop this.”

Problem getting funding with 3 trillion dollars in stash?.

With 10000 Engineering Phd graduate every year, China has problem finding high quality researcher ?
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Another thing he talk about 2700 km missile which is completely different missile then the widely discuss 1500km missile

then again there is different interpretation of what he meant by IOC as clearly explained in this passage
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As for the definition of “operational,” it seems likely that the U.S. and Chinese militaries have different definitions of what it means for a weapon to be operational, with the PLA’s definition in this case being more stringent, at least in certain respects. This would explain why Admiral Robert Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command, stated in December 2010: “I would gauge it as about the equivalent of a U.S. system that has achieved [Initial Operational Capability] IOC.” Perhaps also whereas Admiral Willard was speaking of the U.S. concept of IOC, General Chen is alluding to a Chinese benchmark closer to the U.S. concept of Full Operational Capability (FOC)—a much higher standard to meet, and one that no U.S. official has claimed publicly that China’s ASBM has achieved. In any case, this apparent discrepancy highlights the pitfalls of using U.S.-specific terms to describe foreign systems and capabilities. But it is worth revisiting Admiral Willard’s own statement of December 2010, which is not necessarily so different from General Chen’s: “The anti-ship ballistic missile system in China has undergone extensive testing. An analogy using a Western term would be ‘initial operational capability,’ whereby it has—I think China would perceive that it has—an operational capability now, but they continue to develop it. It will continue to undergo testing, I would imagine, for several more years.” As in so many other areas, authorities on the respective sides of the Pacific may be talking past each other when in fact they are saying broadly similar things. It would be a mistake to let semantic issues obscure real Chinese progress with real strategic implications.

There may be other factors at play as well: General Chen may be downplaying Chinese capabilities to attempt to minimize foreign development of countermeasures to them. At the same time, the PLA may feel the need to meet a higher standard of testing before it can be confident of a novel weapon’s effectiveness because it lacks the U.S. military’s years of experience in high-intensity combat, sophisticated testing, and simulation. But it would be a mistake to assume that China’s DF-21D ASBM lacks what the U.S. military would consider to be lower-end “operational” capabilities just because it apparently does not yet meet General Chen’s definition.
 
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GreenestGDP

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Given the event of successful -- automatic docking of moving TIANGONG-1 and moving SHENZHOU-8 and their correspondent docking technique, ... ...

Does that mean DF21-D chance of hitting a huge flattop moving carrier goes up many, many notches ??


On other front, ... ...

(1) Someone told me that is a rumor that PLAN is building some fleet of unmanned sub-surface mini drones to attach themselves to a moving carrier and acting as the redundant automatic homing beacons for DF-21D a few minutes before it arrives to say hello flattop.

(2) These unmanned sub-surface mini drones will auto explode if get disarm without proper authorization.

(3) The auto explosion will act as another redundant sonar alerts to reveal the general location of the aircraft carrier battle group.

(4) The sonar alerts will get pick up by the lurking submarines, which in turn will act as the spotter for the DF-21D.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What do guys think?
Does this rumor make sense?

It is a sweatier palm time for some navy planners.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Given the event of successful -- automatic docking of moving TIANGONG-1 and moving SHENZHOU-8 and their correspondent docking technique, ... ...

Does that mean DF21-D chance of hitting a huge flattop moving carrier goes up many, many notches ??

Not really -- I mean there might be some overlapping technlogy but that's about it.


On other front, ... ...

(1) Someone told me that is a rumor that PLAN is building some fleet of unmanned sub-surface mini drones to attach themselves to a moving carrier and acting as the redundant automatic homing beacons for DF-21D a few minutes before it arrives to say hello flattop.

A rumour, if not a bit of a wet dream lol -- it seems a bit of a stretch to go for such a risky "redundancy" measure. Better to rely on active terminal guidance by the RV itself.

(2) These unmanned sub-surface mini drones will auto explode if get disarm without proper authorization.

(3) The auto explosion will act as another redundant sonar alerts to reveal the general location of the aircraft carrier battle group.

(4) The sonar alerts will get pick up by the lurking submarines, which in turn will act as the spotter for the DF-21D.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What do guys think?
Does this rumor make sense?

It is a sweatier palm time for some navy planners.

I don't think this quite makes sense. At all. It sounds like sci fi almost. Better to use some kind of SOSUS net, UAVs, subs, OTH etc to find the general location of a cvbg before using uavs or satellites to track it and then send in the missiles.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

What exactly is the difficulty of building submarine drones though?

Everything. Such a drone will have to operate completely independent of a human operator and have very smart systems that can identify friend from foe from neutral. No one is at that stage yet in artificial intelligence yet beyond lab studies with supercomputers.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Given the event of successful -- automatic docking of moving TIANGONG-1 and moving SHENZHOU-8 and their correspondent docking technique, ... ...

Does that mean DF21-D chance of hitting a huge flattop moving carrier goes up many, many notches ??


On other front, ... ...

(1) Someone told me that is a rumor that PLAN is building some fleet of unmanned sub-surface mini drones to attach themselves to a moving carrier and acting as the redundant automatic homing beacons for DF-21D a few minutes before it arrives to say hello flattop.

(2) These unmanned sub-surface mini drones will auto explode if get disarm without proper authorization.

(3) The auto explosion will act as another redundant sonar alerts to reveal the general location of the aircraft carrier battle group.

(4) The sonar alerts will get pick up by the lurking submarines, which in turn will act as the spotter for the DF-21D.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What do guys think?
Does this rumor make sense?

It is a sweatier palm time for some navy planners.

That would be sort of pointless because unless the drone has unlimited power, it's range is going to be limited thus in order to use them someone will have to have seen the aircraft carrier in order to put the drones into the water. Also I believe it's the speed of the ASBM warhead which makes maneuvering it to hit a specific sized moving target difficult. No honing signal is going to aid in scoring a hit except in offering last minute info on location.

Let's not forget the ASBM will be a part of a system. There's going to be a whole network of surveillance from OTH radar, submarines, ships, UAVs, aircraft, satellites, etc... ready to report the location of an aircraft carrier. And then any assets in the vicinity will attempt to do what they can to destroy/disable the aircaft carrier increasing the chance of a hit for an ASBM if it's needed. Unless China can cheaply produce these to the point the sky is raining ASBMs, they're going to be used in the most optimum of situations.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Everything. Such a drone will have to operate completely independent of a human operator and have very smart systems that can identify friend from foe from neutral. No one is at that stage yet in artificial intelligence yet beyond lab studies with supercomputers.

Not necessarily, I was reading with interest an article, maybe last year or early this year, about a Chinese Satellite that was just being launched and which had developed a specific form of laser on board, which was ideal for secure comms with submerged ships. I can't remember where or when exactly, but suspect it was ATOL and by the Sat guy that they publish from time to time.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Problem getting funding with 3 trillion dollars in stash?.

With 10000 Engineering Phd graduate every year, China has problem finding high quality researcher ?
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Another thing he talk about 2700 km missile which is completely different missile then the widely discuss 1500km missile

then again there is different interpretation of what he meant by IOC as clearly explained in this passage
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


As for the definition of “operational,” it seems likely that the U.S. and Chinese militaries have different definitions of what it means for a weapon to be operational, with the PLA’s definition in this case being more stringent, at least in certain respects. This would explain why Admiral Robert Willard, Commander, U.S. Pacific Command, stated in December 2010: “I would gauge it as about the equivalent of a U.S. system that has achieved [Initial Operational Capability] IOC.” Perhaps also whereas Admiral Willard was speaking of the U.S. concept of IOC, General Chen is alluding to a Chinese benchmark closer to the U.S. concept of Full Operational Capability (FOC)—a much higher standard to meet, and one that no U.S. official has claimed publicly that China’s ASBM has achieved. In any case, this apparent discrepancy highlights the pitfalls of using U.S.-specific terms to describe foreign systems and capabilities. But it is worth revisiting Admiral Willard’s own statement of December 2010, which is not necessarily so different from General Chen’s: “The anti-ship ballistic missile system in China has undergone extensive testing. An analogy using a Western term would be ‘initial operational capability,’ whereby it has—I think China would perceive that it has—an operational capability now, but they continue to develop it. It will continue to undergo testing, I would imagine, for several more years.” As in so many other areas, authorities on the respective sides of the Pacific may be talking past each other when in fact they are saying broadly similar things. It would be a mistake to let semantic issues obscure real Chinese progress with real strategic implications.

There may be other factors at play as well: General Chen may be downplaying Chinese capabilities to attempt to minimize foreign development of countermeasures to them. At the same time, the PLA may feel the need to meet a higher standard of testing before it can be confident of a novel weapon’s effectiveness because it lacks the U.S. military’s years of experience in high-intensity combat, sophisticated testing, and simulation. But it would be a mistake to assume that China’s DF-21D ASBM lacks what the U.S. military would consider to be lower-end “operational” capabilities just because it apparently does not yet meet General Chen’s definition.

you are assume the chinese are downplay the capabilities, I can also assume US overplay the df21 capabilities. the things is there aren't any verify test data that shows DF21 currently pass the developement phase. Until there are actual field test data came out df21, no one can said 100% its working.

school doesn't teach you how to design missile guidance system. those system are design/devleoped by experience engineer with decades of experience. they need some high skill with alot experence with these kind of system design in order to get it work.
 

s002wjh

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

What exactly is the difficulty of building submarine drones though?

continuously communication in real time or communication at any given time at any given environment. since water doesn't conduct RF signal well, they have to find another way of communication,. also autonomous programming, recognition software etc. but the main issue is how to communicate/control something under water constantly. its much simpler if its remote control rather than fully autonomous. but that require coninuously communicate with the sub, able to send complex command to the drone underwater(EM signal is out of question, unless the sub drone drag 2mile long antenna).
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Not at all. The US AEGIS BMD system has been successfully tested and deployed.

But you are ignoring my point - what has the SM3 been successfully tested, and certified against?

Not M10 maneuvering re-entry vehicles I think.

What you are insisting is akin to arguing that a air bag rated for 30mph crashes will work just as effectively in a 70mph crash.

Surely you can see the flaw in logic in extending the 'operational deployed' coverage of SM3 to include things it has never been tested against?

None of which has been tested or proven. it's all still just research and development. No operational tests, no deployment.

How can you know that?

Unlike US ABM tests, China does not release any official material on its AShBM tests, if such a programme exists.

Your definition of 'operational tests' is quite unreasonable in my view, as you are almost willfully ruling out all possible evidence of tests so long as it's not conducted against a target out at sea.

Live firings against targets out at sea would be the final validation and pre-deployment tests. By the time we see that, the programme would be nearing the end of it's initial development and testing phase and could be operationally deployed soon afterwards.

There were no 'operational tests' for China's anti-sat missiles prior to the actual live test either. If we went by your insistence, we would have classed that as a paper project until the moment of the live fire. Clearly that is not an accurate assessment of the stage of development the system was in, just as it would not be reasonable to insist that an AShBM does not exist until one is fired at a sea based target.

Buit the US is already testing against those threats and improving its software and hardware in anticipation of it.

The US has been testing against M10 maneuvering re-entry vehicles?

So...now we cannot put any confidence in what the leading PRC General's have to say? My guess is that if he said it was operational you would be crowing about that...and understandably so...but you cannot have it both ways.

Nice try there mate, but that's comparing apples to oranges.

It is common practice to make an official announcement when a weapons system achieves operational status. But when has a Chinese official ever commented about an on-going top secret project before?

Has PLA generals come out giving briefings about the stage of development of any of the dozens to hundreds of other ongoing PLA projects that we know and don't know about?

When as the last time a Chinese general made any comments about China's anti-sat weapons? The J20? The Ming, or Qing SSk? The WZ10 attack helo? The new Type 99 follow-on MBT? The many many UAVs being developed? Need I go on?

It is so obviously not a common practice for the PLA to comment on on-going projects, so the obvious question you should be asking is why is General Chen making an exception here?

The fact that he made those remarks while giving a joint press conference with Adm Mullen would be a good indicator of why he said what he said don't you think?

Bottom line is this...AEGIS BMD is deployed and has hit and shot down ballitic missile rentry vehicles...of several varieties.

Very careful choice of words there my friend. But we are not at a press conference and can speak frankly I think. ;) How many of those intercepts were in terminal phase? How many of them traveling at M10 and maneuvering?

Surely I do not need to remind you that not all ballistic missiles are created equal. Some are easier to intercept that others, and the phase of flight the missiles were traveling at makes a massive difference.

It has not been tested against a DF-21D per sey because there isn't one.

Well it is a little disingenuous to put it like that as you are making it seem I am the one being obtuse by insisting that BMD be tested against a DF21D.

But that was not what I said. I asked you whether the SM3 has been tested against a DF21 class weapon, and I mentioned class several times in my original post. I even named the Pershing II as something I would consider to be in the same class as the DF21D.

But the US is modeling and testing this deployed weapons system against the best environment representing future threat environments they expect to encounter. That's the way the US tries to develop its systems all the time..

But until the SM3 successful intercepts a DF21 class weapon, you cannot say with any confidence or evidence that it is able to defend against such a weapon.

If the a new gun CIWS has only been tested against subsonic AShMs, would you insist that it can stop supersonics?

But, to claim that a system that has never been fired into the actual environment that it is supposed to be designed for...where the military people in chagre of it are stating out right that it is still in R&D phase and a long wasy from deployment is somehow the same as a weapons system that was developed to shoot down ballistoic missiles and has on numerous occassions been tested in live fire tests and done that very thing is just not a good comparison.

Correction, general Chen never said that the DF21D is a long way from deployment. At least not in any of the transcripts I have seen.

What you are not appreciating, and of course you have no reason to because you do not speak Chinese and the nuances have not been explained in the original translation, is that there were no reference to time in the General's words.

Unlike english, which puts a lot of emphasis on past, current and future tenses, it is perfectly possible to avoid any mention of tenses when saying the same thing in Chinese, and that is what the General has done.

He said that the weapon is very hard to develop and that there are bottlenecks. However, whereas I would have had to describe those bottlenecks as 'are' or 'were', you do not need to make such distinctions in Chinese, and the General did not. So those bottlenecks could be on-going, or they could have already been overcome and he was just giving a history lesson.

The devils is in the details, and while you are focusing on what he said, I found how he said it, and in who's presence to be much more interesting.

There is little doubt in my mind that the General was being very deliberate in what he said and that he said it to send a message to America.

I am not yet decided on whether that was an attempt to calm the Americans, or to warn them, or to double bluff them.

The fact is AEGIS BMD is deployed on over two dozen warships right now.

Yes, but they are most effective against SCUDs or interception missiles during the transit phase.

I have not seen any tests that show that SM3s can intercept a DF21 class weapon in terminal phase, never mind one with a maneuvering re-entry vehicle.

When the DF-21D has been successfully tested...we can have another conversation. Once it has been deployed and is operational, we can have another discussion and see where the US is at that point with its defenses.

Until then...we will just keep going around and around and around.

Well, we seem to disagree on what would constitute a test. But I agree that we are just going around in circles here for now. ;)
 
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