Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics
- Thread starter Kampfwagen
- Start date
escobar
Brigadier
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?
here is my thinking about DF-21
option 1 it is a tool of warfighting : if it is that PLA need to test it again and agin over water against ships in every condition possible to make sure that it is working. You can't just test it inland and say it is working. Ex J-20 is a weapon of warfighting, PLAAF will use it in any war (when it become available) so you can't just do simulation or ground test and say J-20 is working no way. You have to fly it day, night, in every condition possible. that is a weapons of warfighting
option 2 it is a weapon of deterrence : if it is that all PLA need is to make USN believe ASBM is plausible. PLA don't need to test it over water. he just can make an inland test. The role of the ASBM is to make USN think twice. that does not mean PLA will not launch a couple of DF-21 if a war borke but PLA is not counting on ASBM to be his primary solution against USN CVN. if it works good, if not no problem
Now we have USN admiral saying ASBM has reached IOC; USN navy is puting in place a counter-ASBM (UCAV) but PLA has not made a single test over water.
Make your enemy do your will
Just Brillant
here is my thinking about DF-21
option 1 it is a tool of warfighting : if it is that PLA need to test it again and agin over water against ships in every condition possible to make sure that it is working. You can't just test it inland and say it is working. Ex J-20 is a weapon of warfighting, PLAAF will use it in any war (when it become available) so you can't just do simulation or ground test and say J-20 is working no way. You have to fly it day, night, in every condition possible. that is a weapons of warfighting
option 2 it is a weapon of deterrence : if it is that all PLA need is to make USN believe ASBM is plausible. PLA don't need to test it over water. he just can make an inland test. The role of the ASBM is to make USN think twice. that does not mean PLA will not launch a couple of DF-21 if a war borke but PLA is not counting on ASBM to be his primary solution against USN CVN. if it works good, if not no problem
Now we have USN admiral saying ASBM has reached IOC; USN navy is puting in place a counter-ASBM (UCAV) but PLA has not made a single test over water.
Make your enemy do your will
Just Brillant
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Re: "interactive guidance" replaced "perturbation guidance" on new LM-2F
Well it take a missile 30 minute from detection to reach their target at 1500 mile Now how far can a carrier sail in this 30 minute. At 45 mile /hr. it can only sail 20 mile. Any garden variety AShM typically has 200 mile radius of detection meaning it will hit any target within 200 mile once the target is detected or illuminated by on board sensor.
China now has at least 70 satellite It will give them 30 minute revisit time of a target meaning it can check and recheck target within 30 minute.
As I say before a typical OVH radar has a radius of at least 2000 mile. It can detect any movement within 2000 mile radius. At last count China has 3 of them along the east coast of China. Then it can cue in synthetic aperture radar or optical satellite of which China has at least 12 of them.
Typically each of them has a sweep of at least 300 km square.China has 2 communication relay satellite that basically can transfer data from one satellite to the other
In 2010 China launch Yaogan 9 a constellation of 3 satellite similar to NOSS
China made a key breakthrough in 2010 with the launch of the three-satellite Yaogan 9 constellation, reported to be a Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS), capable of using time difference of arrival techniques to triangulate and target radar emitting carrier strike groups and other warships of interest with long-range missiles. These satellites appear particularly well-placed to fill a gap in China’s “carrier killer” anti-ship missile programs, which include both ballistic and cruise missiles designed to evade (or destroy) the air defenses surrounding U.S. aircraft carriers.
Chinese sources indicate that operational tests have been successfully conducted to link these spy satellites to anti-ship missiles for targeting mobile targets on land and at sea. Falling within the range of these missiles are assets belonging to the United States as well as allied and friendly nations in the Western Pacific. China’s surging military satellite deployments has created the ability to monitor contentious territorial claims, and potentially enforce them vis-à-vis coercive missile diplomacy. With Chinese satellite launches set upon an upward trajectory in the next two years, countries around the world may be hard pressed to hide from China’s unblinking digital eyes in space.
The day that Big carrier can hide in Pacific is over for good. Forget the vapor ware rail gun they consumed so much energy that no ship can carry the power plant
China defense minister Gen Chen Bing De himself acknowledge the existence of ASBM of course couched in soothing word they are still experimental but they have been developing it for 10 years!
Still the definitive papers on ASBM
I understand this November he is going to update this old report
For Chinese Elint and Satellite
Well it take a missile 30 minute from detection to reach their target at 1500 mile Now how far can a carrier sail in this 30 minute. At 45 mile /hr. it can only sail 20 mile. Any garden variety AShM typically has 200 mile radius of detection meaning it will hit any target within 200 mile once the target is detected or illuminated by on board sensor.
China now has at least 70 satellite It will give them 30 minute revisit time of a target meaning it can check and recheck target within 30 minute.
As I say before a typical OVH radar has a radius of at least 2000 mile. It can detect any movement within 2000 mile radius. At last count China has 3 of them along the east coast of China. Then it can cue in synthetic aperture radar or optical satellite of which China has at least 12 of them.
Typically each of them has a sweep of at least 300 km square.China has 2 communication relay satellite that basically can transfer data from one satellite to the other
In 2010 China launch Yaogan 9 a constellation of 3 satellite similar to NOSS
China made a key breakthrough in 2010 with the launch of the three-satellite Yaogan 9 constellation, reported to be a Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS), capable of using time difference of arrival techniques to triangulate and target radar emitting carrier strike groups and other warships of interest with long-range missiles. These satellites appear particularly well-placed to fill a gap in China’s “carrier killer” anti-ship missile programs, which include both ballistic and cruise missiles designed to evade (or destroy) the air defenses surrounding U.S. aircraft carriers.
Chinese sources indicate that operational tests have been successfully conducted to link these spy satellites to anti-ship missiles for targeting mobile targets on land and at sea. Falling within the range of these missiles are assets belonging to the United States as well as allied and friendly nations in the Western Pacific. China’s surging military satellite deployments has created the ability to monitor contentious territorial claims, and potentially enforce them vis-à-vis coercive missile diplomacy. With Chinese satellite launches set upon an upward trajectory in the next two years, countries around the world may be hard pressed to hide from China’s unblinking digital eyes in space.
The day that Big carrier can hide in Pacific is over for good. Forget the vapor ware rail gun they consumed so much energy that no ship can carry the power plant
China defense minister Gen Chen Bing De himself acknowledge the existence of ASBM of course couched in soothing word they are still experimental but they have been developing it for 10 years!
Still the definitive papers on ASBM
I understand this November he is going to update this old report
For Chinese Elint and Satellite
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Re: "interactive guidance" replaced "perturbation guidance" on new LM-2F
the carrier is not on a fixed course, but it is on a quasi-fixed course, it cannot move away from its course easily in a short time, and it can be literally pin-down from re-enter to hit.
I don't know how hard it is to find a carrier group, but it certainly can be tracked all the time once it is found, given today's technology it wont be that difficult to track 11 groups from space and this will make the wolf-pack strategy very potent.
big boys may still need carriers to project power till north korea and iran develop their carrier killers, but coral sea and midway kind of sea war is a thing of the past.
the carrier is not on a fixed course, but it is on a quasi-fixed course, it cannot move away from its course easily in a short time, and it can be literally pin-down from re-enter to hit.
I don't know how hard it is to find a carrier group, but it certainly can be tracked all the time once it is found, given today's technology it wont be that difficult to track 11 groups from space and this will make the wolf-pack strategy very potent.
big boys may still need carriers to project power till north korea and iran develop their carrier killers, but coral sea and midway kind of sea war is a thing of the past.
Pointblank
Senior Member
Re: "interactive guidance" replaced "perturbation guidance" on new LM-2F
1. Finding the target will be the main challenge, and the USN has many, many tricks up its sleeves to hide carrier groups, many of which date back to the Cold War. The Soviets as I mentioned struggled at times to track USN carrier groups, despite the many satellites, aircraft, and ships that they had.
2. OVH radars are utterly useless for targeting and tracking. They are easily spoofed, and they lack the resolution to aim a weapon accurately. Satellites also lack the resolution and capabilities to aim weapons. At best, all you know is that someone is out there. The Soviets had similar OVH radars before, and they often never detected USN carrier groups operating just outside Soviet naval bases for weeks at end. Why do you think the Soviets invested lots of money and personnel into their SNA pathfinder aircraft? They knew satellites didn't have the capabilities to accurately pinpoint carrier groups, and thus they needed more conventional platforms such as aircraft to find and identify carrier groups.
1. Finding the target will be the main challenge, and the USN has many, many tricks up its sleeves to hide carrier groups, many of which date back to the Cold War. The Soviets as I mentioned struggled at times to track USN carrier groups, despite the many satellites, aircraft, and ships that they had.
2. OVH radars are utterly useless for targeting and tracking. They are easily spoofed, and they lack the resolution to aim a weapon accurately. Satellites also lack the resolution and capabilities to aim weapons. At best, all you know is that someone is out there. The Soviets had similar OVH radars before, and they often never detected USN carrier groups operating just outside Soviet naval bases for weeks at end. Why do you think the Soviets invested lots of money and personnel into their SNA pathfinder aircraft? They knew satellites didn't have the capabilities to accurately pinpoint carrier groups, and thus they needed more conventional platforms such as aircraft to find and identify carrier groups.
Re: "interactive guidance" replaced "perturbation guidance" on new LM-2F
There are alot things chinese need to acheive when attacking a carrier.
1. they have to find the target under US countermeasure
2. they have to continuously tracking the target throughout the operation under US countermeasure condition.
3. All systems invovle for this task has to be secured and in operation status, if any is destroyed/jammed by US, Asbm will not work.
4. the system/missile has to penetrate several layers of US defense in order to reach its targets.
5. multiple missile has to be fired to increase sucess rate under US countermeasure conditon.
also the missile has to pass through varies Noise both in nature and man-made.
for example if the weather is cloudy, its more diffcult to track and hit the target.
if the missile is even off by few dozens feet from the target, it will not damage the carrier.
its not an easy task, if it was that easy, the soviet/russia would done it by now.
There are alot things chinese need to acheive when attacking a carrier.
1. they have to find the target under US countermeasure
2. they have to continuously tracking the target throughout the operation under US countermeasure condition.
3. All systems invovle for this task has to be secured and in operation status, if any is destroyed/jammed by US, Asbm will not work.
4. the system/missile has to penetrate several layers of US defense in order to reach its targets.
5. multiple missile has to be fired to increase sucess rate under US countermeasure conditon.
also the missile has to pass through varies Noise both in nature and man-made.
for example if the weather is cloudy, its more diffcult to track and hit the target.
if the missile is even off by few dozens feet from the target, it will not damage the carrier.
its not an easy task, if it was that easy, the soviet/russia would done it by now.
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Re: "interactive guidance" replaced "perturbation guidance" on new LM-2F
Once the RV renters the atmosphere it will be very limited in its ability to re-aquire the target unless something is there linked into it. And that something will be well within range of the carrier, its escorts and its aircraft.
It is not so easy as you imagine for satellites to find and track carriers. The US has decades of experience avoiding this with the Soviets and that technology and methodologies still work today.
Finally, the SU defenses are already in place to shoot down an incoming ballistic missile.
We have been over this ground many time and nothing is going to change. I believe the values of the onboard sensors for the RV and the OTH are wildly inflated in this particular case as well.
Time will tell...and again, until some form of operational test demonstrating the types of capabilities you speak of is conducted, then it all remains a lot of R&D and talk regarding what might happen. I do not believe the PRC would deploy such a system, which would again, cost billlions for all of its pieces, without knowing absolutely that it will work. You fid that out by testing it.
Sorry, I know of no rentry vehicle that has that type of sensor range or power built into it. Usually the vessel firing the missile or the aircraft targeting it (if it is something like a Hawkeye), may have that range...but not the warhead itself.
Once the RV renters the atmosphere it will be very limited in its ability to re-aquire the target unless something is there linked into it. And that something will be well within range of the carrier, its escorts and its aircraft.
It is not so easy as you imagine for satellites to find and track carriers. The US has decades of experience avoiding this with the Soviets and that technology and methodologies still work today.
Sorry, again, I am not aware of any OTH radars that can reliably find and track something like a carrier over a 2000 mile range.
Finally, the SU defenses are already in place to shoot down an incoming ballistic missile.
We have been over this ground many time and nothing is going to change. I believe the values of the onboard sensors for the RV and the OTH are wildly inflated in this particular case as well.
Time will tell...and again, until some form of operational test demonstrating the types of capabilities you speak of is conducted, then it all remains a lot of R&D and talk regarding what might happen. I do not believe the PRC would deploy such a system, which would again, cost billlions for all of its pieces, without knowing absolutely that it will work. You fid that out by testing it.
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Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?
Not all the missile are guided by Semi active radar homing head there is such thing as active radar homing missile that carry on board their own transmitter and receiver!.
Initially guided by Inertial navigation system until it is close to target than it will activate either their own radar or infrared imaging sensor
Modern laser gyro is very accurate to 10 km over distance of 2000 km. Some of the air to air missile can reached their target over 100km with their small diameter now this ASBM is huge missile that can carry large diameter radar on its the head.
Combined with infra red imaging sensor ASBM is almost impervious to the counter measure .
Providing they have enough surveillance satellite and GPS satellite that can track an retrack the target within 30 minute, they can be used to provide mid course update too ASBM
Don't forget that Carrier is emitter of all kind electromagnetic wave with plane landing and take off constantly
Not all the missile are guided by Semi active radar homing head there is such thing as active radar homing missile that carry on board their own transmitter and receiver!.
Initially guided by Inertial navigation system until it is close to target than it will activate either their own radar or infrared imaging sensor
Modern laser gyro is very accurate to 10 km over distance of 2000 km. Some of the air to air missile can reached their target over 100km with their small diameter now this ASBM is huge missile that can carry large diameter radar on its the head.
Combined with infra red imaging sensor ASBM is almost impervious to the counter measure .
Providing they have enough surveillance satellite and GPS satellite that can track an retrack the target within 30 minute, they can be used to provide mid course update too ASBM
Don't forget that Carrier is emitter of all kind electromagnetic wave with plane landing and take off constantly
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Re: The End of the Carrier Age?
infra red sensor won't work when the surrounding temperture of missile are hundreds if not thousands degree due to friction through atmosphere at terminal speed.
due to surrounding environment at that speed not sure how accurate the sensor will be, the condition will generate alot noise for the radar system. also there is other issues need to be solved as i mention in post 109.
A2A missile radar system only has cloud clutter and atomsphere noise to worry about. the ship is attach to the sea(the background noise is different), the guidance system has to distinguish ocean vs ship, and it has to identify which ship in the CVBG is the correct target under combat condition.
infra red sensor won't work when the surrounding temperture of missile are hundreds if not thousands degree due to friction through atmosphere at terminal speed.
due to surrounding environment at that speed not sure how accurate the sensor will be, the condition will generate alot noise for the radar system. also there is other issues need to be solved as i mention in post 109.
A2A missile radar system only has cloud clutter and atomsphere noise to worry about. the ship is attach to the sea(the background noise is different), the guidance system has to distinguish ocean vs ship, and it has to identify which ship in the CVBG is the correct target under combat condition.
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Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?
s00wjh we been thru this before As I say before when you watch your evening news you can clearly see the cloud moving over the land and sea Now how did they do that even with so called background noise? They filtered it of course. Weather satellite or fighter jet radar use the same principle of Doppler shift to identify moving target
China is not exactly inept or incompetent when it come to radar just read this paper
Abstract: It is an important issue to study sea clutter suppression because it could interfere with the detection
of targets above the sea surface severely. Spatial spectrum analyses show that the majority of sea clutter
has low-frequency characteristics, compared to the high-frequency characteristics of the targets. This
paper proposes a frequency-based spatial tracking filter to suppress sea clutter to facilitate targets identification.
Experimental results show that the signal-to-clutter ratio can increase by more than 10 dB after filtering
and the algorithm is feasible for practical use. In addition, the filtering equation can be optimized to maximize
the signal-to-clutter ratio improvement. The equation parameters can also be adjusted to give a proper
cut-off frequency for different targets and clutter.
If anything carrier is huge warm body in cold sea background with all kind of electromagnetic wave that can be picked up easily from space or other surveillance platform
China has send and retrieve human to space and untold number of retrievable satellite not too mention thousand of short range missile.
And in 2009 they intercept ICBM at midcourse flight exactly using infra red imaging sensor
Certainly they have worked out the shielding problem
And anybody question the range or capability of OVH radar just read this website
The frequency-modulated continuous-wave (FMCW) waveform.
Wide-aperture (2.3 km) receiving-antenna array.
Automatic detection and tracking of aircraft and ships.
Sea-state monitoring and hurricane tracking.
Tracking of individual ground vehicles, including trains and trucks.
Tracking of ballistic missiles.
Track-while-scan methodologies.
Advanced tracking using dynamic programming and artificial intelligence.
Real-time ionospheric monitoring and propagation management.
Dynamic, real-time, interactive display technology.
New patent pending real-time capability for simultaneous automatic detection and tracking of multiple target types. Examples are ships, aircraft, and missiles, with separate data monitors and trackers, but a unified geographic situation display.
The frequency-modulated continuous-wave (FMCW) waveform.
Wide-aperture (2.3 km) receiving-antenna array.
Automatic detection and tracking of aircraft and ships.
Sea-state monitoring and hurricane tracking.
Tracking of individual ground vehicles, including trains and trucks.
Tracking of ballistic missiles.
Track-while-scan methodologies.
Advanced tracking using dynamic programming and artificial intelligence.
Real-time ionospheric monitoring and propagation management.
Dynamic, real-time, interactive display technology.
New patent pending real-time capability for simultaneous automatic detection and tracking of multiple target types. Examples are ships, aircraft, and missiles, with separate data monitors and trackers, but a unified geographic situation display.
s00wjh we been thru this before As I say before when you watch your evening news you can clearly see the cloud moving over the land and sea Now how did they do that even with so called background noise? They filtered it of course. Weather satellite or fighter jet radar use the same principle of Doppler shift to identify moving target
China is not exactly inept or incompetent when it come to radar just read this paper
Abstract: It is an important issue to study sea clutter suppression because it could interfere with the detection
of targets above the sea surface severely. Spatial spectrum analyses show that the majority of sea clutter
has low-frequency characteristics, compared to the high-frequency characteristics of the targets. This
paper proposes a frequency-based spatial tracking filter to suppress sea clutter to facilitate targets identification.
Experimental results show that the signal-to-clutter ratio can increase by more than 10 dB after filtering
and the algorithm is feasible for practical use. In addition, the filtering equation can be optimized to maximize
the signal-to-clutter ratio improvement. The equation parameters can also be adjusted to give a proper
cut-off frequency for different targets and clutter.
If anything carrier is huge warm body in cold sea background with all kind of electromagnetic wave that can be picked up easily from space or other surveillance platform
China has send and retrieve human to space and untold number of retrievable satellite not too mention thousand of short range missile.
And in 2009 they intercept ICBM at midcourse flight exactly using infra red imaging sensor
Certainly they have worked out the shielding problem
And anybody question the range or capability of OVH radar just read this website
The frequency-modulated continuous-wave (FMCW) waveform.
Wide-aperture (2.3 km) receiving-antenna array.
Automatic detection and tracking of aircraft and ships.
Sea-state monitoring and hurricane tracking.
Tracking of individual ground vehicles, including trains and trucks.
Tracking of ballistic missiles.
Track-while-scan methodologies.
Advanced tracking using dynamic programming and artificial intelligence.
Real-time ionospheric monitoring and propagation management.
Dynamic, real-time, interactive display technology.
New patent pending real-time capability for simultaneous automatic detection and tracking of multiple target types. Examples are ships, aircraft, and missiles, with separate data monitors and trackers, but a unified geographic situation display.
The frequency-modulated continuous-wave (FMCW) waveform.
Wide-aperture (2.3 km) receiving-antenna array.
Automatic detection and tracking of aircraft and ships.
Sea-state monitoring and hurricane tracking.
Tracking of individual ground vehicles, including trains and trucks.
Tracking of ballistic missiles.
Track-while-scan methodologies.
Advanced tracking using dynamic programming and artificial intelligence.
Real-time ionospheric monitoring and propagation management.
Dynamic, real-time, interactive display technology.
New patent pending real-time capability for simultaneous automatic detection and tracking of multiple target types. Examples are ships, aircraft, and missiles, with separate data monitors and trackers, but a unified geographic situation display.
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