Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

you probably overthought the whole situation. The idea is not to sink the carrier. All you have to do is to mess up the deck, which requires only damaging the surface, not the countless layers of reinforced steel. As soon as you poke a few big holes on the surface, the carrier is already disabled.
It is just like a giant howitzer, which is intimidating. But if you pull out the tiny firing mechanism, the whole thing becomes junk.

Submunitions on the AShBM could mess up the deck to a great extent, and will take it out of action for a good while -- which would be an achievement in itself, but I'm wondering if AShBMs, if able to penetrate the reinforced flight deck, could sink it like divebombers did in WWII.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Carriers are hard to sink, but not that hard to mission kill for short to medium periods. The escorts are far less sturdy as well.

The point of a massed missile saturation attack is to strip a CVBG of its escorts and missile kill the carrier long enough for the next wave to come in an unload on it. No ship is unsinkable, you put enough dints in it and she will go down.

I think all this talk of 'carrier killer' is part hyperbole and partly because a 1 ton+ warhead traveling at M10+ could feasibly one-shot-kill a carrier (especially when it is diving in almost vertically) where no other conventional weapon could.

However, I have a feeling that the AShBM programme might have been born from two other separate programmes instead of being something the Chinese actively set out to do.

It would make sense if someone had a look at the PLAN's maritime monitoring and tracking programme (which they need to develop to counter USN carriers no matter what means they ultimately employ to try to sink them with if it came to that), and the Second Artillery's ballistic missile accuracy improvement programme, and had a epiphany.

By focusing so much on whether the AShBM works as a whole system, we may be missing the equally, if not more significant developments in the PLA's maritime tracking and targeting field, and the Second Art's general ballistic missile modernization programme.

If I am right, it would also partly explain why there has not been a full sea test yet (apart from the secrecy consideration of course), as developing an AShBM may well be a happy spin-off of the two programmes I described above, and that it's success or failure is secondary to the parent programmes' independent success.

If the PLAN has developed the means to have a high percentage possibility of finding USN carriers and tracking and ultimately targeting them, then that is a significant development in itself as the PLA does have the resources to launch a saturation attack with conventional strike fighters and cruise missiles that will have a high probability of inflicting significant damage on a USN CVBG.

Additionally, the Second Art's ability to massively reduce the CEP of their thousand+ ballistic missiles deployed against Taiwan will also significantly shift the balance of power across the straits.

This is significant, because the PLA's ideal battle plan if they were forced into a war over Taiwan, would be to quickly overwhelm the island's defenses before the US has time to mobilize and get directly involved in the fighting.

If the PLA ends up having to fight the US to take Taiwan, Beijing will already consider that a failure, as doing so will have significant negative consequences for China and its economic growth and development even if the do manage to defeat the US militarily.

Thus, while having the ability to take out USN carriers would be a key objective, it is very much a secondary one to weapons that will aid the PLA take Taiwan quickly enough that the US does not even get the chance to get involved in the fighting.
 
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pugachev_diver

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

True..but witness the USS Enterprise CVAN-69..in January 1969 she was heavily damaged by a fire very similar to the Forrestal fire in 1967. In her case she was sent to Pearl Harbor and repaired and back in service in 6 weeks.

You meant cvn65? I agree that they can be fixed quickly. But the thing is that, during time of war, it is rare that a jet-less carrier can do much to protect itself. It will be a sitting duck for the enemies. Its defensive capabilities will be greatly compromised even if there are Aegis destroyers protecting it.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Submunitions on the AShBM could mess up the deck to a great extent, and will take it out of action for a good while -- which would be an achievement in itself, but I'm wondering if AShBMs, if able to penetrate the reinforced flight deck, could sink it like divebombers did in WWII.

I have stress many times why I think armor piercing medium cal sabots would be an excellent choice for an AShBM.

But a 1 ton warhead, even if it didn't pack any HE, would likely punch straight through a carrier if it was coming in at M10+. if a carrier takes anything but a glancing hit by one of those missiles, it is mission killed for the duration of any conflict at the very least. even if it does not sink, it may end up being scrapped because of how much work will be needed to repair so much damage.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

You meant cvn65?

You caught that.. But I did post CVAN-65 on purpose. Because when the fire occuried 42 years ago the Enterprise was CVA(N)-65..The A stands for attack. The N for nuclear.

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Spartan95

Junior Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Most cruise missiles have relatively smaller warheads and have far less kinetic energy/armour piercing potential, so I'm thinking that against massive ships like carriers, they are not very effective in causing long term/crippling damage, never mind actually sinking one because they can't get deep enough into the carriers bowels and are only able to scratch the surface instead... Could that be why the PLA's going for ballistic missiles?

Modern anti-ship missiles designed by western countries are generally not intended to be used against armored targets, hence their small warhead. In contrast, the Russians designed huge missiles that carry a much larger warhead precisely because the CVNs are armored.

Whilst it is true that conventional missiles and bombs are not particularly effective at sinking an armored CVN (as shown by the clips posted by popeye), torpedoes are an entirely different matter altogether.

Now, I wonder why the PLAN put so much resources into building submarines in the past decade.....
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Whilst it is true that conventional missiles and bombs are not particularly effective at sinking an armored CVN (as shown by the clips posted by popeye), torpedoes are an entirely different matter altogether.

Now, I wonder why the PLAN put so much resources into building submarines in the past decade.....

Hey thats interesting, though I suppose the idea of aircraft launched torpedoes is now obsolete?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Hey thats interesting, though I suppose the idea of aircraft launched torpedoes is now obsolete?

Nope, the USN P-3 Orion has air launched torpedos. Mk-48 I think. And so will the P-8 Poseiden.

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The integral bomb bay will carry free-fall bombs, Raytheon Mark 54 torpedoes and depth charges. Air-to-surface missiles will be installed on the underwing hardpoints.

The US Navy has plans to arm the P-8A with a development of the mk54 torpedo that can be fired from high-altitude. A request for proposals is expected by the end of 2008.
 

Hawk21

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I wonder if the PLAAF are considering working on a similar strike capability?

Assuming a viable sensor architecture, the PLAAF (or more likely PLA Navy) could fund development of an air-launched variant of the DH/CJ-10 capable of going against moving targets at sea. Defending a carrier battle group against a combination of MRBMs, sub-launched ASCMs, and air launched long range ASCMs seems like a pretty stressful mission if operating within the threat ring.
 
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