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pmc

Major
Registered Member
China and US both once deployed around 1.5 million troops on a rotating basis each in Korea.
that was 1950s demographics concentrated in small area. in advance surveillance system it becomes way expensive to protect things spread out.
There is at least (vast understatement) 1 factory in China that makes most of (explosives added somewhere else) 1000 cruise missiles per day. The output of that singular factory can likely outmatch the pace of the whole Russian cruise missile campaign in Ukraine by itself.
Russia has not published its numbers but its easy to figure out from platforms they have not only more cruise missile carriers but faster reload time of those carriers. MIG-31K /Su-34/Su-57 are long range missile carriers.
China cannot match Russia in aviation whether Su-25SM3/Ka-52M practically flying at ground level or Tu-160M (which is not participating.). it will be like saying China can compete with Russia in fresh water or energy resources. If Russia really want increase energy production it will be more than combined of US and Saudi Arabia. They have the right balance in economy.

Even if we assume only 1/10 of those missiles have ready cheap launchers to put them on, how long has Russia managed to fire 100 cruise missiles daily at Ukraine?
Russia does not want to shortern the war yet. you can search Ukraine thread as i was the earliest pointing out.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia has oodles of STEM graduates every year.
Which makes their failure in the tech sector even more embarrassing. I am beginning to think there's a European-wide curse on being unable to produce large technological companies. Yandex was their one big company but outside the CIS countries, they were totally irrelevant. Once the war broke out, one of their co-founders fled to Israel if memory serves.

Outside of a few areas with a strong Soviet legacy (MIC, nuclear energy), Russia doesn't have much to offer. It's not as dependent on oil or fossil fuel exports as many Western "experts" claim but it's a more backward country than you would have us believe.

Wages are always the best indicator of the true productivity levels of a country because GDP stats are imprecise measurements. Wages cannot be faked and companies will never overpay workers compared to the baseline productivity of an economy, because then you get an wage-inflation spiral if wages increase much faster than productivity for a long amount of time. So wages in Russia are basically at the same level as in China, which is to say fairly low by Western standards.

I am more optimistic about China given its central role in many industries of the future, whereas Russia is still very reliant on older tech (fossil fuels, nuclear energy and ICE vehicles). I am not forecasting any sudden decline. I just think they will muddle along like they have until now but unable to meaningfully converge with the West.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Yeah, but most of China's population lives in the eastern half of the country.
Outside the Thar desert in the north-western corner of India, their population is much more spread out geographically.
Well at least you can explore mineral resources in those mostly empty areas. The Indians cannot do that.

Because the Australian services sector is much stronger and of course its population is much lower, which means their commodities exports cover a smaller population per capita. But even in the absence of a strong commodities sector, they have far higher productivity in the non-mining sectors of their economy compared to Russia.
It is kind of easy to forget that most of Russia is basically covered in permafrost. The easy to mine places are already dug. Totally different.
Russia also went through the Soviet collapse.

Which makes their failure in the tech sector even more embarrassing. I am beginning to think there's a European-wide curse on being unable to produce large technological companies.
There is no such thing. In the EU the problem is kind of simple. The individual markets are too small and everyone speaks a different language. Often don't use the same currency. And if you do create a business, it will either be bought by larger US companies, or crushed by them.

Russia has a larger more uniform population. But they also suffer from lack of the Chinese Firewall. So US companies can muscle in with their larger capital.

Yandex was their one big company but outside the CIS countries, they were totally irrelevant. Once the war broke out, one of their co-founders fled to Israel if memory serves.
It is not just Yandex. There are other companies like VKontakte.

Like all other billionaires these people store most of their wealth offshore. The guy from Yandex fled to Israel so he could keep his ill gotten gains it is as simple as that. I mean the company was even headquartered in the Netherlands just to avoid paying taxes.

Outside of a few areas with a strong Soviet legacy (MIC, nuclear energy), Russia doesn't have much to offer. It's not as dependent on oil or fossil fuel exports as many Western "experts" claim but it's a more backward country than you would have us believe.
Have you ever tried going off the beaten track in the US? I bet you would love to visit West Virginia as well.
Because that is the kind of place people typically depict when they try to show how backwards Russia is.

Wages are always the best indicator of the true productivity levels of a country because GDP stats are imprecise measurements. Wages cannot be faked and companies will never overpay workers compared to the baseline productivity of an economy, because then you get an wage-inflation spiral if wages increase much faster than productivity for a long amount of time. So wages in Russia are basically at the same level as in China, which is to say fairly low by Western standards.
Ever heard of cost of living? Wages converted to USD are not everything.

I am more optimistic about China given its central role in many industries of the future, whereas Russia is still very reliant on older tech (fossil fuels, nuclear energy and ICE vehicles). I am not forecasting any sudden decline. I just think they will muddle along like they have until now but unable to meaningfully converge with the West.
Russia always has periods when it opens, and when it closes. Right now they are closing.

You call it older tech, but the thing is, they do have their own oil which could last them for decades. Their already explored gas deposits would last them a century or two. Their oil exploration industry has developed fracking equipment, which will likely be used in the Urals region, and they are developing offshore drilling equipment. So why do you think they should be in a particular rush to change? To electric cars? Made with imported materials?

Rosatom is investing in technologies like lithium ion batteries and hydrogen fuel cells. They are the ones most interested in it because their business is making electricity with nuclear power. They also have people with strong skills in both physics and materials. Their mining business is also working on how to extract lithium from deposits available in Russia. But I doubt this will happen short term.
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Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
that was 1950s demographics concentrated in small area. in advance surveillance system it becomes way expensive to protect things spread out.

Russia has not published its numbers but its easy to figure out from platforms they have not only more cruise missile carriers but faster reload time of those carriers. MIG-31K /Su-34/Su-57 are long range missile carriers.
China cannot match Russia in aviation whether Su-25SM3/Ka-52M practically flying at ground level or Tu-160M (which is not participating.). it will be like saying China can compete with Russia in fresh water or energy resources. If Russia really want increase energy production it will be more than combined of US and Saudi Arabia. They have the right balance in economy.


Russia does not want to shortern the war yet. you can search Ukraine thread as i was the earliest pointing out.
That Russia is fighting defensively in Ukraine to maximize Ukrainian losses still doesn't make up for the vast difference in national power.

I don't think you realize just how large the gap is.

Russia boasted a production of 4.5 million artillery shells a year.

If all of China had 10 subcontractor plants similar to the ones shown on CGTN, they would be able to deliver 3.5 million guided missiles a year.

To give you a perspective, in ww2, USA produced 300 000 combat aircraft (similar quality/production cost as a cheap cruise missile). And in ww2, Italy produced ~600 000 artillery shells.

Russia's military industrial capability vis a vis China today is not ww2 Japan or Germany vs USA as some might believe. It's ww2 Italy vs USA.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Chinese industrial capacity dwarfs basically everyone else. It is a simple matter of fact. Which is why the US basically destroying the EU economy in an act of autophagy is likely going to bite them long term. Alone the US cannot compete. Right now they seem to be banking on the Chinese demographic collapse, and increasing migrant intake, but I doubt that will work.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
That Russia is fighting defensively in Ukraine to maximize Ukrainian losses still doesn't make up for the vast difference in national power.

I don't think you realize just how large the gap is.

Russia boasted a production of 4.5 million artillery shells a year.

If all of China had 10 subcontractor plants similar to the ones shown on CGTN, they would be able to deliver 3.5 million guided missiles a year.

To give you a perspective, in ww2, USA produced 300 000 combat aircraft (similar quality/production cost as a cheap cruise missile). And in ww2, Italy produced ~600 000 artillery shells.

Russia's military industrial capability vis a vis China today is not ww2 Japan or Germany vs USA as some might believe. It's ww2 Italy vs USA.
i dont want this about Ukraine conflict why certain things are more or less used.
Only Russian fighters can reliably lift 1500/3000 kg bombs to a distance. This is not a war you can hide things and those people are so powerfull now that they will direct blame of every thing away from them.

1720859498148.png
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
Yeah, but most of China's population lives in the eastern half of the country.

Outside the Thar desert in the north-western corner of India, their population is much more spread out geographically.
On the contrary, the vast majority of India's population lives in the Gangetic Plains which is a valley in the north between the Himalayas and a southern plateau/mountain range.

Screenshot_20240713-051324_Chrome.jpg
1062px-India_topo_big.jpg

It's been like this throughout history.
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
On the contrary, the vast majority of India's population lives in the Gangetic Plains which is a valley in the north between the Himalayas and a southern plateau/mountain range.

View attachment 132396
View attachment 132395

It's been like this throughout history.

Most of India is pretty much flat land. Even the deccan plateau is mostly flat. That's why India has the most arable land in the world.

50% of India is arable land. Even China's eastern portion where 94% of the population lives, its extremely mountainous and thus not usable for either human habitation, city building or agriculture. This one of the biggest problems for China. Its mountainous and full of useless lands


1720863990483.png
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
I remembered Jaishankar boasting in the last SCO meeting about the Global South looking up to India for infrastructure development. LOL! Build safe bridges for your own people first, before you build for others. Besides, what happened to those "100 million toilets" that you've built under "Swachh Bharat"? It seemed like Indian open defecation rates hasn't gone down at all.
Modi: Define "toilet"
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
Most of India is pretty much flat land. Even the deccan plateau is mostly flat. That's why India has the most arable land in the world.

50% of India is arable land. Even China's eastern portion where 94% of the population lives, its extremely mountainous and thus not usable for either human habitation, city building or agriculture. This one of the biggest problems for China. Its mountainous and full of useless lands
I dont think India has the most Arable land.
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According to Rosreestr data as of January 2019, the total area of agricultural land in Russia was 382.5 million hectares, of which agricultural land (arable land, hayfields, pastures, fallow lands, lands occupied by perennial plantings) - 197.7 million hectares. If we add here the land on which citizens grow potatoes and vegetables, fruit trees and berry bushes in vegetable gardens and summer cottages, as well as all lands used for scientific purposes, the area of agricultural land will increase to 222 million hectares. According to the Ministry of Agriculture, about a fifth of all agricultural land (about 44 million hectares) is currently not used. Of this, 20 million hectares are arable land (used for sowing agricultural crops). But according to various estimates, the amount of unused agricultural land in Russia may be almost twice as much - up to 80 million hectares. For comparison, this is larger than the entire territory of France.
 
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