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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
IMHO, many of China's problems with developing economics and industry compared to the West had a lot to do with the class structure of Ancient China. Even as late as the Qing, the emperor and his bureaucrats dominated the system but most importantly artisans and merchants were seen as beneath even the peasantry. Very little attention and resources were given to these artisans to build or invent things or merchants to start new businesses. Confucian morals and Bureaucratic policies were seen as the utmost importance.

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In an agrarian society the farmers are more important than merchants and artisans. Even in the US, urbanization only exceeded 50% in 1920 while industrialization of the US began in 1860's.

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you cannot have 90% of the population as farmers and treat them like shit, while expecting a stable society.

the most important distinction of societies before industrialism wasn't in technology, as everyone had roughly the same technology from 200 BC to 1200 AD with only minor differences. Even guns were not the determining factor - Chinese, Turks, Persians and Indians had guns and cannons too. Up to 1700, most empires were stable once the New World got stabilized. Even colonization of the Americas, while hugely disruptive globally, didn't change the status quo for Spain much. They didn't go on a conquering spree with American resources, after all.

It wasn't until industrialization, steel, railroads, repeating rifles and steam engines that African tribes could be conquered due to the huge logistical challenges. And the US succeeded in the defeat of the Plains Natives where Spain failed because even horses, iron armor and guns were not enough, but railroads and steam engines were.

the most important distinctions of preindustrial societies was 1. internal cohesion, 2. population size, 3. historical records

that is why European kings spent tons of time and money fighting wars between Catholicism and Protestantism, and sponsoring illuminated gold plated Bibles. It wasn't that they really cared about obscure church doctrines, it was because allowing a religious split in your country weakens 1/3 of the fundamental determinants of state power and making the church unhappy weakens another 1/3.

that is also why Chinese rulers put tons of emphasis on the bureaucrat, scholar and farmer class and sponsored works of history by the bureaucrats, even to the exclusion of other forms of literature like the novel (which was unpopular until the Ming). Internal cohesion, population size through food production and keeping a detailed historical record were the extraordinary parts, everything else is just doing the “best known practices" that's worked for the past 1000 years and solving specific problems.

I suspect that the Chinese model with some updates may end up being the right one in the end, as low hanging fruit of technologies are picked.
 

tygyg1111

Senior Member
Registered Member
This picture, not all the idiotic "superpowa by 2030", not "BrahMos will destroy all of Pak" nonsense is what really pisses me off when it comes to Indians.

  • Why does the ship need to unload at UAE and then go to Saudi Arabia? Why cant they just unload at a Saudi Port?
  • Why does the ship need rail at all? why not just go through the Suez Canal?
  • How do they expect the railway to go through Jordan when the country is narrow gauge? are they unloading and reloading into standard gauge?
  • Why is the picture of the boat a random crop with completely different colored water?
  • Why is Biden in the picture???
I hate the fact that i wasted more braincell analyzing this picture then the Indian idiot making it. Its like an instant 15 points IQ drop the moment you deal with Indians, read their comments or watch their news. It's like a weapon they can deploy like the supposed "gay bomb" but this one makes you stupid.
I'd imagine the logic goes something like, "important countries have many partners, in fact all countries want to be involved in development schemes run by important countries (look at BRI, which we hate because that should be our scheme), therefore, we need as many partners in this scheme as possible"
 

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
actually there is a way to get non-citation economic data - use observations i.e. direct satellite imaging, electricity production observations, etc that do not rely on someone telling you what happened. This can theoretically be bought directly as a service from satellite imaging companies, although the cost for an individual is prohibitive. It can get as granular as parking lot data. This is exactly what the US tries to do to China, btw, because they don't believe Chinese numbers.

Basically, the large scale version of 'trust your eyes' rather than 'trust me bro'.

I am also just explaining why many Americans are very easy to persuade to reject reality - because their academics do not teach them that reality exists. As long as they can pull tons of citations, reality is whatever they want it to be. Chinese are not taught the same thing. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it is just how it is.

It basically boils down to the difference between the
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. Modern China is materialist while the West is idealist.
Whereas a materialist seeks to explain the world of society and nature according to the material conditions and processes at work, the idealist believes that events take place because of the existence of spiritual forces or “ideas”.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Really. During Song mercantile and manufacturing account for a large portion of state revenue. You are telling me that at that time merchants are seen as beneath peasantry? The fact is each dynasty is different, so you cannot really generalize that way. Mongolian Yuan favors merchants, while look down on peasants. Ming is opposite, perhaps due to backlash. Even on the top, there are change of political influence of nobility, bureaucrats, and emperor -- during reign of weak emperor, bureaucrats may actually the ones who is in charge.
This to me seems to be a justification of why China destined to be behind rather than a temporary setback due to circumstances.
It's not a singular cause but it nonetheless significantly contributed to stagnation in certain fields of study compared to the West. That's not to say this mindset stopped progress altogether or didn't vary based upon different dynasties and rulers as each had its unique perspectives and biases as you have said.

Still I would have very much liked to see China had its rulers choose to elevate the philosophy of Mohism and emphasize more the role of the artisans and merchants class as it believed it could have allowed the Chinese to industrialize early and develop economic institutions like stock markets and corporations first instead of the West.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
In an agrarian society the farmers are more important than merchants and artisans. Even in the US, urbanization only exceeded 50% in 1920 while industrialization of the US began in 1860's.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

you cannot have 90% of the population as farmers and treat them like shit, while expecting a stable society.

the most important distinction of societies before industrialism wasn't in technology, as everyone had roughly the same technology from 200 BC to 1200 AD with only minor differences. Even guns were not the determining factor - Chinese, Turks, Persians and Indians had guns and cannons too. Up to 1700, most empires were stable once the New World got stabilized. Even colonization of the Americas, while hugely disruptive globally, didn't change the status quo for Spain much. They didn't go on a conquering spree with American resources, after all.

It wasn't until industrialization, steel, railroads, repeating rifles and steam engines that African tribes could be conquered due to the huge logistical challenges. And the US succeeded in the defeat of the Plains Natives where Spain failed because even horses, iron armor and guns were not enough, but railroads and steam engines were.

the most important distinctions of preindustrial societies was 1. internal cohesion, 2. population size, 3. historical records

that is why European kings spent tons of time and money fighting wars between Catholicism and Protestantism, and sponsoring illuminated gold plated Bibles. It wasn't that they really cared about obscure church doctrines, it was because allowing a religious split in your country weakens 1/3 of the fundamental determinants of state power and making the church unhappy weakens another 1/3.

that is also why Chinese rulers put tons of emphasis on the bureaucrat, scholar and farmer class and sponsored works of history by the bureaucrats, even to the exclusion of other forms of literature like the novel (which was unpopular until the Ming). Internal cohesion, population size through food production and keeping a detailed historical record were the extraordinary parts, everything else is just doing the “best known practices" that's worked for the past 1000 years and solving specific problems.

I suspect that the Chinese model with some updates may end up being the right one in the end, as low hanging fruit of technologies are picked.
Yes, I know there was a good reason why the Chinese imperial system was set up in the way it did. However, with hindsight, we can see certain structural factors led to China developing differently from the West and a lot of that is cultural.

I also suspect the cultural emphasis in China on farmers and bureaucrats had a lot do with China's uniquely huge population size and density. Lots of people providing cheap labor is good but it also means more rules and organization are needed to keep the system from falling from entropy.

That's why there is a higher emphasis on bureaucratic management and large-scale agriculture in China rather than a community of self-sufficient individuals like in the West, especially in the USA. Rural towns can be more democratic and libertarian because there is a lot of space and few people living there. In contrast, large urban cities cannot be so with limited space and lots of people, so they are run in a more top-down fashion and tend to be more socialist.
 
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_killuminati_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well, this happens when China is the only country in the world that makes this kind of cranes.

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lol. Am I reading this right? Biden administration says Chinese cranes pose a spying threat.

Apparently, Biden is a black woman.
This is United States of America! If Biden identifies as a black woman, then he is a black woman!

Meanwhile, came across this randomly, not exactly new,
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Boeing engineer died after sustaining injuries to his colon while receiving ... from.. a horse. His accomplices avoided major sentences because their lawyer argued that there is no law prohibiting 'f***ing a horse humanely' (whatever tf that means).
 
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