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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
China is using economics as leverage to override SK's sovereign decision making. That's called economic coercion. SK has hesitated to deploy additional US THAADs btw, it has succumbed to the pressure. It worked very well.
It doesn't matter what the West likes to call it; they make up these names for when they don't like what China's doing. It's down to the simple principle of not buying things from people you don't like. Everyone stays within their rights.
Relations between states are entirely different from relations between people within a state. There is no system of laws to govern the former like there is the latter and there never will be because there is no monopoly on force in the international system.
There's no laws in the sense that there isn't anyone who will come out and arrest you but people know right from wrong. Not having the means to stop a bully doesn't mean he's no longer seen as a bully. The laws are actually defined at the UN for what is within a country's sovereign rights; it's just that when powerful countries ignore them, there's not typically the force to stop it. Doesn't mean it's legal or right.
It was, is, and always will be the law of the jungle. The best one can hope for is to make a little Borrellian garden within that jungle, that your corner of it is relatively well-kept. This is what I advocate China do, and the use of force against those who want to bring the jungle to China's garden is perfectly legitimate within that framework.
Even more true than the absence of law is the absence of rights. Rights themselves are imperfectly applied in societies governed by law - does a homeless person have the same rights in any meaningful sense as a billionaire with an army of lawyers? You can extrapolate how invalid they are between states. The only rights a state has are those it has the economic, technological, and military strength to claim for itself.
If it's the law of the jungle, then there can never be any complaining about what anyone ever did. All of America's actions today would be covered. Israel snatching up Palestine would be covered. Japan's invasion of China/Asia would be covered. British imperalism would be covered. The 8 nations trying to part China would be covered. Law of the jungle for everyone and there can never be any morals ever discussed again by that logic.
The golden rule is as inapplicable as law. Neither your nor my bottom line sounds acceptable when applied to China, while they both sound acceptable when applied to America - mine more so than yours. That is because I axiomatically reject any kind of equality between America and China which would form the basis for the golden rule.

The correct response to American aggression against China isn't to appeal to non-existent law or inapplicable interpersonal morality, but to meet aggression of any kind - be "within America's rights" like sanctions or not - with strength. If America quotes the flip of my bottom line, the response is: "Try it. Come get some."
Well if you don't want China to be morally superior to the US but just another bully like the US, then your arguments would make sense. Just 2 countries that don't give a shit about right or reason, just that stronger countries impose their will on weaker ones on the premise of "law of the jungle." Only difference is the skin color.

Now I've actually given more thought to this and it ultimately comes down to the approach. I'm arguing that it is unacceptable by any moral standards for a country to, as you suggested, tell another country that if it doesn't expel its own guests from its territory, then they're going to be invaded and it's their own fault for not complying to the order. It's actually disgusting to think about a country bullying others in this way; reminds me of why American imperialism is so hate-worthy. But it won't go this way; American behavior presents far too many oppertunities for China to act justly in its own defense. There is no real world scenerio where a US military in Japan just peacefully sits on its hands and provokes nobody or they'd lose their purpose for being there. As I said before, I'm fully in favor of Chinese military action as a response to military transgressions by the US or any American vassal. If Chinese military action needs to be taken, it will likely be as an escalation to a land dispute (such as the Diaoyu Isl.) or to a FONOPS in which Chinese ships resort to force to stop an American incursion. I do firmly believe that China should more assertively and aggressively defend itself from these provocations as Chinese power grows and the most realistic situation in which Chinese military force ousts the US from Asia would likely start from a sparkpoint as mentioned above and grow into conflict that would allow China to rightly and justly expand and take out US military bases and assets in Asia. So to conclude, ultimately in a realistic world and situation, I would support Chinese military force to secure a safer and more hospitable surrounding for itself, however, it needs to be done with much more finesse than outright bullying with an ultimatum made in peacetime that tramples on others' sovereign rights.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
It doesn't matter what the West likes to call it; they make up these names for when they don't like what China's doing. It's down to the simple principle of not buying things from people you don't like. Everyone stays within their rights.

You forgot about the "
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" that China demanded of SK as precondition for restoring ties.

  1. - No additional deployment of US THAAD
  2. - No participation in US-led missile defense network
  3. - No involvement in trilateral military alliance with US and Japan.
  1. - Restriction of the use of THAAD batteries so the system's radar cannot be used against China.

This is coupled with the threat of economic retaliation if South Korea continues this trend of siding with US containment against China. The boycott of Lotte was just the beginning.

For someone who claims to be "Morally Upright Chinese", you can cherry-pick your narrative of what is "bullying" as if it's not coupled with political end goals and geostrategic objectives.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You forgot about the "
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" that China demanded of SK as precondition for restoring ties.

  1. - No additional deployment of US THAAD
  2. - No participation in US-led missile defense network
  3. - No involvement in trilateral military alliance with US and Japan.
  4. - Restriction of the use of THAAD batteries so the system's radar cannot be used against China.

This is coupled with the threat of economic retaliation if South Korea continues this trend of siding with US containment against China. The boycott of Lotte was just the beginning.
I didn't forget anything. How hard is it for you to understand that refusing to do business with someone in order to influence his/her choice isn't bullying him/her while physical violence is??

"Hey, I don't like your shirt. Change it or I won't eat at your restaurant." = Not bullying

"Hey, I don't like your shirt. Change it or I'll change your face." = Bullying

It's not that hard to understand.
For someone who claims to be "Morally Upright Chinese", you can cherry-pick your narrative of what is "bullying" as if it's not coupled with political end goals and geostrategic objectives.
For someone who is a moderator, you sure have a hard time understanding basic concepts like that.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Now I've actually given more thought to this and it ultimately comes down to the approach. I'm arguing that it is unacceptable by any moral standards for a country to, as you suggested, tell another country that if it doesn't expel its own guests from its territory, then they're going to be invaded and it's their own fault for not complying to the order. It's actually disgusting to think about a country bullying others in this way; reminds me of why American imperialism is so hate-worthy. But it won't go this way; American behavior presents far too many oppertunities for China to act justly in its own defense. There is no real world scenerio where a US military in Japan just peacefully sits on its hands and provokes nobody or they'd lose their purpose for being there. As I said before, I'm fully in favor of Chinese military action as a response to military transgressions by the US or any American vassal. If Chinese military action needs to be taken, it will likely be as an escalation to a land dispute (such as the Diaoyu Isl.) or to a FONOPS in which Chinese ships resort to force to stop an American incursion. I do firmly believe that China should more assertively and aggressively defend itself from these provocations as Chinese power grows and the most realistic situation in which Chinese military force ousts the US from Asia would likely start from a sparkpoint as mentioned above and grow into conflict that would allow China to rightly and justly expand and take out US military bases and assets in Asia. So to conclude, ultimately in a realistic world and situation, I would support Chinese military force to secure a safer and more hospitable surrounding for itself, however, it needs to be done with much more finesse than outright bullying with an ultimatum made in peacetime that tramples on others' sovereign rights.
I've done some further thinking of my own on this topic and I completely agree with this. Moral justification is every bit as important as the physical balance of forces. It's critically important that China get the pretext right, even if the underlying calculus is completely cynical.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
"Hey, I don't like your shirt. Change it or I won't eat at your restaurant." = Not bullying Economic bullying

"Hey, I don't like your shirt. Change it or I'll change your face." = Bullying Violent bullying

Fixed that for you.

The definition of bullying does not require physical force, it can be non-violent verbal intimidation or harassment.

Maybe learn the
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instead of cherry-picking your own definition, otherwise people are arguing against a strawman definition.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I've done some further thinking of my own on this topic and I completely agree with this. Moral justification is every bit as important as the physical balance of forces. It's critically important that China get the pretext right, even if the underlying calculus is completely cynical.
I have great respect to CPC not because it is a moralist organization, but because it is pragmatic. If situation is like 50s, it would be right to call for a world revolution, because it is pragmatic to do. Likewise today, CPC has decided being peaceful and moral is the optimal decision. I too will respect that. CPC is not bound by dogmas, they pick the optimal decision. Bullying or not it is the decision process behind final action that matters. Today we can afford peace and mercy because we are well off and powerful. If the situation becomes dangerous and the only way out is to fight, offender's freedom(TM) can be damned. Should that happen, I have faith CPC will also create optimal justification for it. I think it is important note Chinese pacifism is a end result of good decision making, not that 'pacifism is always right'. If the context change, then decision can change, and so would pacifism change.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I've done some further thinking of my own on this topic and I completely agree with this. Moral justification is every bit as important as the physical balance of forces. It's critically important that China get the pretext right, even if the underlying calculus is completely cynical.
Breaking the cycles of violence and all that.

Honestly moral justification is all good while China is winning, but if its position would be jeopardised by the US in the future, we should remember that only the victor can have justice. Strip away all that, and we're both just different color apes fighting for control of the jungle.

But what I know is that my side doesn't believe in genociding others. My side considers humans universally to have value. And they've helped more than a billion people attain wealth, choices and jobs, without having to steal it from others. As for what the other side believes, I think I should let the words of their heroes like Netanyahu and Churchill speak for themselves.

In less than a century, humanity will have more enviromental challenges than ever to overcome. We don't have infinite time to get our shit together.

When it all comes tumbling down, are you siding with the ones that run on the platform of common prosperity, or the ones that run on white supremacy? Even if you're white, well guess what, if you can't work with everyone else in a crisis, you'll be one of the losers too.

If committing the equivalent to the Soviet denazification of the Reich or even greater "atrocities" is needed to attain victory over US, then so be it.

I'd rather it not happen at all, but it's a situation where we should not even slightly bat an eye at giving up on a few nazi aligned civilians and military support staff, who proved their support for Nazism by not resisting their regime, when the price of letting them win will mean mutual annihilation.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Breaking the cycles of violence and all that.

Honestly moral justification is all good while China is winning, but if its position would be jeopardised by the US in the future, we should remember that only the victor can have justice. Strip away all that, and we're both just different color apes fighting for control of the jungle.

But what I know is that my side doesn't believe in genociding others. My side considers humans universally to have value. And they've helped more than a billion people attain wealth, choices and jobs, without having to steal it from others. As for what the other side believes, I think I should let the words of their heroes like Netanyahu and Churchill speak for themselves.

In less than a century, humanity will have more enviromental challenges than ever to overcome. We don't have infinite time to get our shit together.

When it all comes tumbling down, are you siding with the ones that run on the platform of common prosperity, or the ones that run on white supremacy? Even if you're white, well guess what, if you can't work with everyone else in a crisis, you'll be one of the losers too.

If committing the equivalent to the Soviet denazification of the Reich or even greater "atrocities" is needed to attain victory over US, then so be it.

I'd rather it not happen at all, but it's a situation where we should not even slightly bat an eye at giving up on a few nazi aligned civilians and military support staff, who proved their support for Nazism by not resisting their regime, when the price of letting them win will mean mutual annihilation.
I would rather PLA not go down to that level. Always exhaust non-violent method first not just because morals, but because it is pragmatic. Like you said, breaking cycle of violence. Pulling an Israel is not going to achieve that. Even if you drive Americans into pathetic state like Gaza they will remain violent. Just get rid of the leaders and do a big Xinjiang on rest of population. Believe it or not, it is not in human nature to blow themselves up. There needs to be a lot of conditioning to radicalize. Remove those conditions and there will be peace.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Fixed that for you.

The definition of bullying does not require physical force, it can be non-violent verbal intimidation or harassment.

Maybe learn the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
instead of cherry-picking your own definition, otherwise people are arguing against a strawman definition.
No, you didn't fix it; you snowflaked it. Sorry, but I don't do that shit where looking at someone the wrong way or telling them you don't wanna be their friend or hang out with them is bullying. Some people feel if 5 people are a group of friends but don't wanna add them, they're being mercilessly bullied. That's not my definition nor was it ever. If you didn't violate anyone's rights, you didn't bully anyone; that's how I see it and it's not cherry-picked from anything. That's how it was from a time when people didn't kill themselves because they got mean Facebook messages.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
No, you didn't fix it; you snowflaked it. Sorry, but I don't do that shit where looking at someone the wrong way or telling them you don't wanna be their friend or hang out with them is bullying. Some people feel if 5 people are a group of friends but don't wanna add them, they're being mercilessly bullied. That's not my definition nor was it ever. If you didn't violate anyone's rights, you didn't bully anyone; that's how I see it and it's not cherry-picked from anything.

"Why Chinaman so violent, we just dont want to hang out with you bro"

Like, this is a slippery slope. Technically US sanctions are also not bullying.
 
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