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- Thread starter bd popeye
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Not surprising. You guys have to understand that the West is a cultural/political/economic block. The dream of dividing Europeans from Americans has always been kind of ridiculous as, push comes to shove, people in the West are far closer to each other than they are to anyone in Asia, Africa, or the Middle East. This is especially the case post-World War 2 because the US and the EU crushed nationalism in most of Europe. Russia being one of the few remaining countries that, due to not being controlled by the West, still retains its nationalism.
But even Russia can't be trusted, long-term, to align with China against Europe. This is because most of Russia's population is European and lives near Europe. They are the eastern extension of the European peoples in Siberia and the Far East. There was a powerful West leaning movement - represented by people like Gary Kasparov and Alexei Navalny - who'd like to see nothing better than for Russia to join NATO and the EU. The war provided Putin with an opportunity to crack down on these people, but they're still there, waiting for Russia's defeat and an opportunity to swing the country West.
I know it wasn't a decision anyone made, but allowing Europeans to spread their empires and their colonists across half the world was the single worst catastrophe that ever happened when viewed from the perspective of the "rest of humanity." What was once just 10% of the world population, now own 50% of its land, if not more. We are all minorities in an European dominated world. Until that changes, that is the unfortunate fact of it.
China is resisting the Russia equals China and Ukraine equals Taiwan comparison. The China equals Ukraine and Taiwan equals DNR and LNR comparison is something different.
If they accept peace and Russia is saved from a war which it can't afford that's good for China and if Ukraine refuses to negotiate and this can be used as justification for arms sales to Russia that's also good for China.
China going out of its way and instead of staying silent and neutral actually making a proposal that disregards the UN charter will only weaken China's claim to Taiwan. The separatist forces and enemy states will cite such a proposal for the next hundred years. Russia isn't worth such a sacrifice
How much you want to bet that the "tap" they drank out of is runs off of a private rain collector equipped with a distillation system, DUV photolysis system and reverse osmosis? Only know we know for sure is for a random resident to open their taps.
France used to be in an alliance with the Turks against the Germans. Non ideological alliances are possible in Europe but only if the EU can be broken apart. Germany and Poland are both too big and too pro US for more independent voices like France to be heard.
It's not just Europeans who spread but also China's own failure under the Ming dynasty where China had the chance to preempt the European colonial era but missed this opportunity. But most currently ethnically European regions probably won't be majority European anyway in a hundred years from now
I think that as far as China is concerned, that is besides the point.
After all, China does not own 10% of the West, and the West does not own 10% of China, and the size of China, the population already exceeds the entire Western world.
Then add in the fact that manufacturing output of China exceeds the West, it could exceed it if Japan is included with the West.
Then China is the biggest trading partner to mostly everyone in the Global South, and maybe a majority of Western countries.
From China's perspective, if the West is go big, then why is China is even bigger, and with those trade links China was able to create the biggest economic boom in human history.
Then, we add in the fact of China's technological base has dramatically improved itself, and strong economic growth will persist in the years or even decades ahead. The best is yet ahead.
The West in comparison to China, looks like it is standing still.
In fact, in some parts of the West, they still doing trench warfare from World War I.
That is why China is a very interesting place. Whatever advantages the West may think it has, it cannot translate that into real action, when compared or in competition with China.
The European attempt to counter the BRI was revealing. Forget what that initiative was called. A big announcement. A year and a half later, no infrastructure projects.
It seems to me that the West takes their advantages for granted, and by extension, takes the Global South for granted, because of their belief in their advantages.
Then China shows up.
Taiwan's status has nothing to do with anything regarding Ukraine. LPR and DPR declared independence, and Ukraine cracked down on them with brute force, it is just that they don't have the power to finish them off and thus signed a legally binding treaty for a ceasefire. Russia on the other hand allowed Ukraine to declare independence peacefully.
China neither allowed Taiwan to gain independence nor did Taiwan declare independence. China did not sign a Minsk 2. Legally, all of former ROC territory is a war zone between 2 parties, just that 1 is losing badly, lost 99.9% of its territory and retreated behind natural borders. Neither side signed anything. all peace offers by China have been refused.
thus, Taiwan bears far more responsibility for whatever happens than either Ukraine or Russia who both broke treaties regarding sovereignty and self determination.
Good post, my views closely align to what you've wrote. Both Europe & the US, in the end, have the same goal of enforcing the white supremacist global order that benefits them and there are a lot of people in other white-majority countries that also want to participate (e.g. Russian "liberals"). That might sound extremely simplified but it all boils down to this - Europe & USA might squabble among themselves about something but both of them don't want a non-white power supplanting their dominance.
China object bringing in Taiwan issue in any discussion of the Russian Ukrainian conflict. At least, China has not talked about DNR and LNR in any circumstance so far. So we shouldn't assume China's opinion on these two regions.
Russia is not in the need to be saved yet. It is Ukraine and its western master need to be saved. During the Sino-Vietnamese conflict, Vietnam lived on USSR donation while China enjoys the western market for its economy. China wasn't in a hurry to make peace and dragged that conflict for more than 10 years. Today is similar where Russia can enjoy access to China's market while Ukraine lives on the west's blood fusion. China is not in any urgency in making peace. Actually, dragging for a few more years is better for China.
Once again, China don't need this justification as China has the right to sell anything to any sovereign state, regardless Ukrainian (US) refusal or acceptance. US sending weapon to Ukraine alone is enough justification for China to sell weapon to Russia. I think Wang Wenbin has made that statement indirectly by saying "US has no right to lecture China when US is streaming weapons to war party."
China making a proposal that disregards UN charter? Do you mean that China's peace proposal (yet to come) will officially force Ukraine to recognize DNR and LNR? Why do you think China would do such thing? Or why do you think anybody here is suggesting such thing? China's proposal does not need to mention any of these two. The proposal can be just cease fire, then start talking, and if goes well ends up like NK and SK where both parties claiming overlapped land. There is no need for China to get anything deeper than a cease fire and entangled.
As China isn't going to make such proposal as you suggested, there is nothing for anyone to cite. Besides, why do you care for what your enemy is going to say? You loose already if you care. Also, Russia is far from needing anybody's sacrifice, but if Russia is to collapse she worths China's sacrifice more than NK to China in 1950s. Think about it, if US controlled NK is a nightmare, a US puppet the size of Russia would be a death sentence to China. China is not going to let that happen, one way or another.
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Russian liberals = team white, both figuratively and literally. They bemoan how Russia was expelled from the white man club and forced to be Mongols.