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broadsword

broadsword

Brigadier
Bellum_Romanum said:
You still live in a fantasy. You cited the Filipinos as your example of what exactly? That the reason most of them leave their country is not because they're deprived of "Freedoms" and are oppressed by the system in terms of their inability to exercise "free speech." Having lived in that country for almost a decade and learned 2 of their major languages (Tagalog, Cebuano/Visaya) their desires stem from the idea and illusion that anywhere is better than being in there country for their future and the future of their children. It's the economic condition, lack of real and meaningful opportunities for the majority of people to see themselves amongst the privileged few.

That country has been under a democratic system since 1946 when their countries independence from America was finally granted. Their system is almost the carbon copy of their American overlords and yet the level of corruption, stratified economy, hierarchical social strata and political figures accruing powers that has benefitted the few while impacting the lives of the many. But the Filipino people has been amazingly resilient and perpetual optimist or maybe a resigned group of people managed to accept their fate and assumed that their manifest destiny is to see themselves abroad to seek glory, fame, and fortune because their country is only there for the one's born into high class families; the one's with connections both with private businesses and public entities. Well connected to be accepted in elite schools etc....

The conditions of the Philippines wasn't a surprise to then former P.M. LKY of Singapore. He detested the very idea of the kind of system, a democratic system being pushed for and narrated by the west, especially by the U.S. every country that has followed the system and recommendations of the U.S. intellectual elites have rarely bring forth any real lasting change for the better. Their records on this regard have been of utter failures.

It's a given that no single individual if given a question wether they like or support corruption would tacitly support such practice. Not the least from people that have come from countries known for massive corruptions. But the question must be asked to you, the U.S. and it's supposed noble efforts to tackle corruption has been on the books for decades with little to nothing to show for it. As a matter of fact corruption happening in developing countries where US and it's western allies efforts has actually led to more sophisticated corruptions not less. Africa in terms of infrastructure investments has been lagging for decades and was frankly overlooked and ignored by the entire west minus their crock of s..t crocodile tears and concerns exercise whenever they convene their feel good "Policy forum talks" annually. Their extractive investments or interests lay in the continued harvesting of the vast minerals and resources. None cared for the well-being of the people, not their natural and physical environments etc...China comes into the scene and all these magic debt trap b.s. sprung up like weeds while actual physical infrastructures are materializing in front of the very eyes of the African people. Telecommunications, railways, paved roads, clean water, ELECTRICITY...all these are being done without China telling the countries in Africa to shape up first or pontificating a out ridding themselves of "corruption" before any work could commense.

If China had taken your advice and implemented such nonsense then you can bet that your feel good rhetoric would have led their efforts to nowhere but actual hostilities and loss of opportunity. Talking and creating wonderful prosaic narrative is not China's strength and that's a f..ng good thing that clearly separates them from the WEST. Africa has heard these shitty feel good talks since the colonial times and well all know what happened then. The Chinese and China managed to make huge inroads because they lead by making things happen; less talk and more action. The results speak for themselves.

So the question should then be asked to African countries or countries that's dealing with Chinese investments is this: are they better off with China's investment with all the infrastructure development or would they rather prefer the litany of criticisms from their western former overlords with nothing to show for? Corruption or no corruption.
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Was Marcos corrupt? My original contention was about bribery by Chinese companies in Third World countries. So let's not veer off too far and into politics. Corruption happens in any political system.
 
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broadsword

broadsword

Brigadier
Overbom said:
Obviously Chinese businesses and the Gov dont like to deal to deal with corruption in these countries. However thats how the things work there. China doesn't like it, but it cannot just abandon these markets, so it has to hold its nose and do business. Thats the reality of doing business in poor developing countries.

In recent years, progress has been made for combating such things by strengthening Chinese law and enforcement but, quite obviously, Chinese investigators cannot reach inside another another country and do their own investigation (big no-no, gives the appearance of disregarding their sovereignty)

What it can do is, to have its ambassadors on the ground to respond quickly to host countries reports about corruption by Chinese companies working there.

A similar thing happened in Kenya where, authorities/orgs alerted the Chinese ambassador to the wrong doing of some Chinese mining companies. China responded very fast and immediately ordered a complete recall of these companies back to China, for investigation and trial on court. CEOs and other top managers are going to be in big trouble now.

As I see you are interested in this topic, I would advice you to wait for the FOCAC 2021 forum between China and African countries which will happen in a few months. I expect that lot of new developments and initiatives will be announced there. Just something to keep an eye wrt China-Africa relations
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My idealistic impossible dream is a system of doing business that is much the same as how China secured and build a bridge in one Scandinavian country and subways in Singapore and other countries.

Then no one can accuse China of making the locals suffer because corruption added an astronomical cost to the contracts. If anyone thinks the locals are enriched, please show me the arithmetic.
 
broadsword

broadsword

Brigadier
solarz said:
Well let me ask you a question first: what do you think is the difference between giving a politician a wad of cash, and donating to his campaign fund?
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You have not answered my question yet. My question was relevant to our original contention. So let's not expand on it until after you have answered my question. Shifting the goal post is for a new thread that you can start.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
t2contra said:
You have not answered my question yet. My question was relevant to our original contention. So let's not expand on it until after you have answered my question. Shifting the goal post is for a new thread that you can start.
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My question was intended to see where exactly your understanding lies. However, since you don't wish to answer, then let me start from the beginning.

Wealth and power. These are the two pillars of society. All human endeavor revolves around those two pillars. Wealth can be used to gain power, and power can be used to gain wealth, but this does not happen on its own. You need a mechanism to do this. It could be as straightforward as ordering your soldiers to pillage a village.

Politicians have power. Capitalists have wealth. Where the two meet is where corruption begins. When a politician desires wealth, he can make use of his power. For example, he could delay the approval of some construction project until he receives a certain amount of compensation. When a capitalist want power, he needs to use his wealth. When a corporation donates to a politician's election coffer, and promises him a cushy job after they leave politics, the capitalist is using his wealth to gain power.

A Capitalist society favors the accumulation of wealth in a small group of people. This gives them leverage to use against people who are in positions of power. The method doesn't matter, it could be a red envelop or a political donation, the end result is the same: the politicians who are supposed to serve the public now serve Capital. This is what Corruption is: the perversion of Democracy, and by Democracy I do not simply mean an electoral democracy, but any political system whose aim is to establish a society where those in power serve the people.

So to get back to the topic of China in Africa, most African nations are deeply corrupt, because they have been exploited for centuries by colonial powers. Those same colonial powers nominally left Africa in the 20th century, but they left behind their capitalists, and it is those capitalists who are the source of corruption in Africa.

Yet, regardless of how corrupt a political system is, you still need to work with it to get anything done. If you don't play by the unwritten rules, then you don't get to play at all. What you shouldn't forget is that those accusing China of corruption in Africa are mouthpieces of the greatest sources of corruption in Africa, and they would love for China to leave the game.
 
Temstar

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Bellum_Romanum said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450412453066649607
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1. L’anthropophage est sorti de son repaire. | The cannibal has come out of his lair
2. L’ogre de Corse vient de débarquer au golfe Juan. | The Corsican ogre has landed at Golfe Juan
3. Le tigre est arrivé à Gap. | The tiger has arrived at Gap
4. Le monstre a couché à Grenoble. | The monster has spent the night at Grenoble
5. Le tyran a traversé Lyon. | The tyrant has crossed Lyon
6. L’usurpateur a été vu à soixante lieues de la capitale. | The usurper was seen 60 leagues from the capital
7. Bonaparte s’avance à grands pas, mais il n’entrera jamais dans Paris. | Bonaparte is advancing with great strides, but will never enter Paris
8. Napoléon sera demain sous nos remparts. | Napeleon will be below our ramparts tomorrow
9. L’empereur est arrivé à Fontainebleau. | The Emperor has arrived at Fontainebleau
10. Sa Majesté Impériale et Royale a fait hier son entrée en son château des Tuileries au milieu de ses fidèles sujets. | His Imperial and Royal Majesty has made His entry in the Tuileries yesterday, amid His faithful subjects

We are somewhere around day 6 I would say, so past half way already.
 
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