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lych470

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The assumption that Friedman makes is that the US lawmakers and the average US citizen are rational beings who are dealing with reality.

But the US lawmakers and the average Yank is not a rational being rooted in reality. Rather they all believe in the Germanic Theory of Victory (日耳蛮赢学), in which the US is always winning because they are the US, and China is the untouchable Dalit for being a socialist state and, well, for being Chinese. Their need for the perception of "winning" and being superior, far outstrips their needs for a Joint Venture with Chinese Capital and Technologies. Besides, in their worldview, the Chinese stole all the American tech and capital in the first place.
 
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plawolf

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One factor to consider is that Trump’s tariffs against the ROW is just what he is trying to achieve, and not just what he says, but increasingly what he does.

I think the U.S. response to Vietnam is a very useful and enlightening case study, since the Vietnamese basically caved immediately and offered basically unconditional surrender, but the Americans still slapped them in the face and told them that wasn’t good enough.

I think it would be too simplistic to just wave that away as give a bully an inch, or New York mafia tactics. Since especially in the case of Mafia tactics, the prevailing logic would be to reward the first to surrender so as to incentivise others to do the same.

The only scenario where Vietnam basically offering Trump everything he asked for and still getting rejected makes sense is if what Trump wants is so outrageous that even he does not dare to openly voice it.

I think we might all be both vastly overestimating the scope of Trump’s ambitions, yet also underestimating the scale of it.

Using the Vietnam case study, it would appear that totally re-writing the rules of international trade isn’t what Trump truly desires. He is basically forcing the Vietnamese into a trade war. This also aligns with the speed at which he is threatening to escalate his trade war with China.

This and the fact that he has imposed tariffs against the entire world, including on the poor innocent penguins! Makes me suspect that Trumps ultimate goal is to completely disconnect America from world trade as we know it. That is what we are underestimating, that he might wish to go so far.

As for the trillion dollar question of why, well I think there are two obvious rationals for Trump to think this way.

The first is his prevailing belief that world trade has been a net negative for America. That allies and adversaries alike have used world trade to suck America dry of jobs and money. This belief would have been reinforce by the result of his first trade war against China, where the most he has managed to achieve was to get some exporters to move manufacturing out of China and to Vietnam and Cambodia etc (which might also explain the venom Trump’s tariffs have reserved for those countries despite no obvious offence having been committed by them against America or Trump). I think that experience is why he basically went and attacked everyone, he knows he cannot achieve his stated aim to re-shoring manufacturing jobs back to the US if he is stuck play the game of whack-a-mole of chasing manufacturers across the globe. So by imposing tariffs against everyone, he thinks he can ensure factories have no chose but to return to the U.S.

The second rationale for him to go scorched earth against the whole world is the same reason Skynet launched nukes against the Russians in the Terminator universe - to trigger the retaliation that he is counting on to destroy his enemies at home.

Trump’s support base are farmers. They will loose business if America effectively no longer trades with the rest of the world, but people still got to eat, so there is a realistic bottom to how much they can fall. But much of the rest of the US economy, especially the democrat support bases, can basically disappear altogether without world trade and massive internal demand contractions as a result of a crippling economic depression.

Why would he want that you ask? In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. No matter how badly America as a nation and people gets screwed over, if Trump and his family comes out relatively better off, then that’s a good outcome as far as Trump is concerned.

If Trump could nuke the economic support base of his rivals, then that makes it easier for him to seek out a 3rd term and basically become the first President-King of America.
 

HereToSeePics

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All the more satisfying that vietnamese bent the knee on tariffs immediately just to get pissed on their heads
Situation with Vietnam is a lot diff than China’s. Their
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, 30% of which goes to the US. Their hands are tied, even a small slow down in export revenue will crater their economy.
 

tokenanalyst

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Situation with Vietnam is a lot diff than China’s. Their
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, 30% of which goes to the US. Their hands are tied, even a small slow down in export revenue will crater their economy.
That is a bad situation to be in. Looks like Trump and Ron Vara don't want to negotiate. Their best bet is to hope the US consumers are willing to eat the tariffs and deepen their ties with their Asian neighbors.
 

iewgnem

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Yeah that's nice but where the 50% at?
US doesn't enjoy 50% price advantage over other countries, the existing 50% tariff on US goods already killed them off, adding another 50% would just be symbolic. China can still do it for the optics, but China is aiming for pain, and the rest of the list actually causes pain.

Specifically going after US companies in China, i.e. "service trade", and going after unfair IP practices, these does astronomically more damage.
 

iewgnem

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Situation with Vietnam is a lot diff than China’s. Their
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, 30% of which goes to the US. Their hands are tied, even a small slow down in export revenue will crater their economy.
Practically all of Vietnam's export are downstream from China, at end of the day losing 30% of exports (which won't even be that much because, I mean, where else are companies who just setup factories there and hasn't yet made back return on investment gonna move to this time), is infinitely better than getting on China's bad side and lose all your exports.
 
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