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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
A wise man once said, allow nothing get in the way of a great story; and Deep Seek is a great story. But end of the day, we need to sit down and talk about facts.

Deep Seek is not a super hero team of 200 IQ geniuses. They didn't "do the impossible." The reason they did what Big Tech. did with a fraction of the costs is because China does everything the US does at a fraction of the costs. It's the same reason BYD can sell an EV brand new for $11,500, but a "domestically built EV" cost $50,000+ in the US. It's why DJI can sell a drone for $500, but Skydio sells it at $2,000. It's why a medical procedure in China cost $500, but the same medical procedure in the US costs $5000.

It's the currency, stupid. Chinese labor, energy, infrastructure, food, medicine, everything seems absurdly cheap when converted to dollars. And that's what Deep Seek's costs were evaluated in - dollars. Nobody ever talks about the amount of energy they used to train the model and how that compares to the energy spent by other AI companies. No, we always talk about dollars, dollars, dollars - and that's the same story across every industry - China does it cheap. AI is just the latest to be hit by it.

Yes, there's a bit more to it than that. Institutional bloat - which doesn't just affect US Big Tech., but also Chinese Big Tech. companies like Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba, etc. - that also has tremendous costs. It's why Byte Dance is investing billions of dollars into the effort, while Deep Seek with its relatively small team with minimal middle management, could get away with a lot less. Fact is, if you have thirty Directors, Senior Directors, and Vice Presidents making millions of dollars a year each, it's going to cost you billions on compensation alone especially with all the usual corporate alignment, meetings, delays, etc.

But that's not just an US problem. That's a big corporation problem. It's why nobody in Chinese Big Tech. is claiming it's cheap. Because it isn't, when your corporation becomes that large.

Deep Seek's advantage is the advantage enjoyed by every Chinese company in competition vs. the US - cost. Their disadvantage will also be the same - it'll be hard for Deep Seek to keep hold of its talent in the coming days, as recruiters start reaching out to poach them for ten times the salary. But maybe that's okay. As long as China maintains a talent advantage vs. the US, and there's no shortage of young Chinese AI graduates hungry for fame and fortune, companies like Deep Seek can continue to surprise the world about Chinese costs in dollars.
here is the problem though. Even if Deepseek's total costs in RMB were converted to USD, they'd still have only spent around $50 million USD for a top tier model instead of $10 billion. So instead of a 2000x cheaper AI it is merely 200x cheaper.

This isn't like EV where it's like a 50% advantage.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
here is the problem though. Even if Deepseek's total costs in RMB were converted to USD, they'd still have only spent around $50 million USD for a top tier model instead of $10 billion. So instead of a 2000x cheaper AI it is merely 200x cheaper.

This isn't like EV where it's like a 50% advantage.
$50 million in final training, not in total R&D. It's not known how much Deep Seek spent in total R&D since they only counted the compute used to train the final model, and not the countless trials & errors it took to get there.

Mind you, this is probably still a lot cheaper than what Open AI, Meta, etc. spent just from their corporate bloat, but from a pure compute perspective, a Western company can likely reproduce Deep Seek's results using similar amounts of money... if they weren't at such a currency disadvantage. That is to say, I think a Western company at the top of their game can train a final o1 model with $50 million. But they can never do it for $5.6 million.
 

jiajia99

Junior Member
Registered Member
View attachment 144351
Wow so the NIH grant pause might be an even bigger deal than I thought. The new admin is actually going full anti-science. The odd thing is that NIH is actually pretty bipartisan because there’s a lot of conservative scientists too… wonder if this is Musk’s doing…

Seriously, Trumps actions has to potential to cause a lot of collateral damage, even on his own side. Then again, he doesn’t seem to care given how eager he is to restart the tariff war when it is proven that it simply doesn’t work.


THe most demoralising thing for americans/anglos/westerners isn't that training for Deepseek was only $5mln, but that Deepseek was actually a side project, and not the real thing to whatever the team were working on.


It's like anglo americans/anglo zionists are so committed to their paradigm/religion of white supremacy that they cannot conceive that Chinese could out-innovate ashkanazi and anglo IQ. You'd think the Einstein experience or Oppenheimer would've taught them that lesson, but it's evident that their white supremacist religion is too entrenched.
A concept that I am going to enjoy watching China destroy bit by bit in the next few years. May China free to world from this Anglo Zionist mother friggers once and for all and do a lot of damage to the brains of these idiots so that they never recover. Never has there been a class of people that deserve to absolutely suffer, their entitlement is beyond the pale
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
The cost might be the monopoly profits of some pharmaceutical companies.

At least from my perspective, this is a desperate struggle by some pharmaceutical companies to maintain their monopoly position, attempting to influence government decisions by turning it into a public issue. Moreover, why would anyone equate product price with product quality? In a market that lacks regulation and is controlled by monopolistic companies, the goods available are often overpriced and of low quality.

More importantly, using the potential efficacy issues of a few specific drugs to argue that the entire procurement system is unreasonable is utterly absurd. If one truly wishes to demonstrate that procurement policies have led to a widespread decline in drug quality, a statistically significant report would be far more convincing. The most important question is this: to improve drug quality, should we allow monopolistic companies to control the market and set unreasonable high prices in exchange for possible efficacy improvements, or should we strengthen drug quality regulations while encouraging companies to upgrade their production technology? At least if I had to choose, I would lean toward the latter.
This is definitely classic pharma propaganda.
People do associate cost with quality, and they are taking advantage of this psychology.

The pharma companies in the US were cautioning people from buying Insulin and Epinephrine from Canada (which has some limited drug pricing regulations) because the “may not meet American standards” even though they were likely made in the USA by the same companies.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
$50 million in final training, not in total R&D. It's not known how much Deep Seek spent in total R&D since they only counted the compute used to train the final model, and not the countless trials & errors it took to get there.

Mind you, this is probably still a lot cheaper than what Open AI, Meta, etc. spent just from their corporate bloat, but from a pure compute perspective, a Western company can likely reproduce Deep Seek's results using similar amounts of money... if they weren't at such a currency disadvantage. That is to say, I think a Western company at the top of their game can train a final o1 model with $50 million. But they can never do it for $5.6 million.
Yes they can now because DeepSeek showed it was possible.

If DeepSeek didn't do it first they wouldn't be saying this.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
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