Miscellaneous News

Temstar

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
FairAndUnbiased said:
TBH it looks like even the Indians and Americans are hedging their bets while Ukrainians are all in on 1.
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The smart thing for Ukraine to do now given Trump is cutting their funding for at least 90 day is to do a pivot and say they support the One China Principle and then draw inference to how Taiwan to China is like Donbass to Ukraine. Then I think there's a good chance Xi would call up Putin and say Bro I think you've had enough, 差不多得了 freeze the border at the current front Korea style.

Alas they're all in on the US.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Temstar said:
I've wondered about this, and in recent days it came up again due to the refugees on XHS running with Maoism ironically or otherwise: how come western Marxists have this weird relationship with CPC. They don't necessarily always straight up say CPC is revisionist but also don't praise Socialism with Chinese Characteristics either despite the clear success it's having. So I went into those communities and sure enough they are also talking about it in light of recent events. They generally give pretty honest answers like:

1. They're not comfortable with the degree that CPC is embracing capitalism at this stage in development, some doubt there really is a big plan with communism at the end (the 'state capitalist' angle')

2. Western Marxism mainly concerns itself with equal distribution of resources in society, or how to evenly cut the cake. This is probably because their society started with a high baseline. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is mainly concerned with growing resources, or how to make the cake bigger, probably because of the lower starting baseline in China (the Marxism vs Maoism angle)

3. They don't see eye to eye with CPC because Marxism in the west is mainly an academic exercise, so purity of ideology is important, in an almost religious holy text sort of way. CPC actually has to get its hands dirty running a country under socialist principles and CPC is famously pragmatic which Western Marxist see as unclean (the ivory tower vs barefoot doctor angle)

4. They think China is just straight up authoritarian and just using socialism as window dressing, ruining the good name of socialism. These lot get a lot more push back now from their peers saying they've fallen for the same propaganda that their government use to make China look bad because surprise surprise they live in capitalist countries.

But I think someone made the best comment that it can be summed up in a much simpler way: during the Sino-Soviet Split majority if not all of Western Marxist are on the Soviet side. Seen as Soviet Union failed and PRC is going strong if they embraced Socialism with Chinese Characteristics they will have to admit they were wrong, and people hate to admit they were wrong.

That's why socialist movement in the west is in such a strange state. Due to history they are unable to embrace the one big actual working example of their theory in action. I frankly think an easy mental gymnastic way out for them has already handed to them on a silver platter: just do the Deng thing and say doesn't matter if it's black cat of white cat, if it can catch mouse it's a good cat and be done with all that historical baggage.
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Sino-Soviet break was the 3nd major break of socialism/communism.

The 1st was the breakingup of 2nd international when early socialist broken into social democrat and socialist workers party (of Russia) aka communist party, the same happened in Germany that created social democrat and communist. The first faction joined captalist government by election, the second faction choose continue revolution.

The 2nd break was in early time after WWII where most communist in the west after persecution by the Nazi and Facist then by the occupying Americans, and also after some failed attempt to sieze power (Greece), decided to accept being a legal party in the capitalist system. This is also the time when 3rd international (communist international) broke.

The 1st break created social democrat. The 2nd created western Marxist and "communist" who are not much different from social democrat because they accepted the system they once tried to fundamentally change. The only difference is that the 2nd still hang on the illusion that by their doing they are realizing a more "humane" communism. But they just surrenderred without acknowledging.

Since both the two breakaways are fundamentally same as their right wing counterparts in power, they all hate the remaining communists in China and USSR. Just read these parties meifesto full of "human right, democracy" you can see why.

The tiny difference that western communist siding USSR than China was because USSR was much more powerful which represent "right path". These western communists actually broke with USSR in the 2nd break precisely because they reject Russian choise of violent fighting for state power. So their choosing USSR over China has nothing to do with ideology choice. A funny fact is that the so-called "state capitalism" that these western communist blame China for is first made by Lenin as a analog of Socialist State where State owns the capital on behalf of people in USSR. The western communist rejected USSR for the same reason of rejectiong China today.

Yes, western "Marxists" treat Marxism as an academian subject because they dare not or would not try anything to realize it. To make themselves relevant they attack whoever tried such as the communist/socialist stats. Many such academians are not even remotely communists.

Today, all these wester "lefts", "socialists" and "communists" are just relical labels. I won't care what they say they are.
 
C

Chevalier

Captain
Registered Member
Temstar said:
I've wondered about this, and in recent days it came up again due to the refugees on XHS running with Maoism ironically or otherwise: how come western Marxists have this weird relationship with CPC. They don't necessarily always straight up say CPC is revisionist but also don't praise Socialism with Chinese Characteristics either despite the clear success it's having. So I went into those communities and sure enough they are also talking about it in light of recent events. They generally give pretty honest answers like:

1. They're not comfortable with the degree that CPC is embracing capitalism at this stage in development, some doubt there really is a big plan with communism at the end (the 'state capitalist' angle')

2. Western Marxism mainly concerns itself with equal distribution of resources in society, or how to evenly cut the cake. This is probably because their society started with a high baseline. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics is mainly concerned with growing resources, or how to make the cake bigger, probably because of the lower starting baseline in China (the Marxism vs Maoism angle)

3. They don't see eye to eye with CPC because Marxism in the west is mainly an academic exercise, so purity of ideology is important, in an almost religious holy text sort of way. CPC actually has to get its hands dirty running a country under socialist principles and CPC is famously pragmatic which Western Marxist see as unclean (the ivory tower vs barefoot doctor angle)

4. They think China is just straight up authoritarian and just using socialism as window dressing, ruining the good name of socialism. These lot get a lot more push back now from their peers saying they've fallen for the same propaganda that their government use to make China look bad because surprise surprise they live in capitalist countries.

But I think someone made the best comment that it can be summed up in a much simpler way: during the Sino-Soviet Split majority if not all of Western Marxist are on the Soviet side. Seen as Soviet Union failed and PRC is going strong if they embraced Socialism with Chinese Characteristics they will have to admit they were wrong, and people hate to admit they were wrong.

That's why socialist movement in the west is in such a strange state. Due to history they are unable to embrace the one big actual working example of their theory in action. I frankly think an easy mental gymnastic way out for them has already handed to them on a silver platter: just do the Deng thing and say doesn't matter if it's black cat of white cat, if it can catch mouse it's a good cat and be done with all that historical baggage.
Click to expand...
I fear the reason is simpler and more pessimistic: that whilst China and Chinese are even handed when dealing with everyone, western socialists and that includes Russians, still perceive the world on a racial pecking order of white primacy. They feel uncomfortable that China is leading the world into a Star Trek socialist future only because it’s China leading the way; if it was gene roddenberry type white western nation they wouldn’t have the same level of pushback.
 
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