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doggydogdo

doggydogdo

Junior Member
Registered Member
fatzergling said:
Why not seize the robots directly and distribute the production to the populace? If capital will produce all goods without human input, why not nationalize the capital and distribute its fruits to citizens? As long as China is (nominally) socialist, this is always a potential option. The US, by ruling out socialism, de facto rules out this potential response to automation.

By the way, I think it's hilarious how China teaches Marxism in schools and sends graduates into a free-market system. Given the cruelty of the free market, China can build support for socialism from disgruntled workers in ways that, say the USSR, cannot.
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Automation should be used to reduce working hours instead of just giving stuff to the people. Chinese workers work a lot compared to most countries, Chinese work 49 hours a week, which is also why births has fallen by so much in China, they just have no time to take care of kids. The other countries with high working hours like Mexico don't face this problem because their society is still more sexist compare with China and women usually stay home and take care of kids.

Just to put into context how much Chinese work the Soviet Union only use to work 35 hours a week for non-agricultural industries
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Chevalier

Captain
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GulfLander said:
"EU to demand tech transfers from Chinese companies, FT reports

The European Union is planning to compel Chinese companies to transfer technology to European businesses in return for EU subsidies, the Financial Times reported on Tuesday, citing two senior EU officials."

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Did Tesla transfer tech?
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1858851208057729425

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"We assume damage to Baltic Sea cables was sabotage, German minister says
Boris Pistorius says ‘no one believes’ two undersea fibre-optic communications cables were cut accidentally"

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"Russian president Vladimir Putin to visit India soon, says Kremlin"

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Is this the European way of admitting that white supremacy cannot get them the tech they need for the 21st century? Why then do they persist in the Anglo American white superemacy empire project?
azuazu said:
This is just an old man on his last legs worrying that his country will eventually be taken over by its Chinese diaspora population. During his life he pulled every trick in the book to prevent the Chinese from gaining enough political influence to remove the clearly racist policies he put in, and he's worried that once he's gone his legacy would crumble like sand.

It's not like I blame him, as a people we're just so damn tryhard compared to the Malays I too would be worried if I were in his shoes.
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no, I take a vengeful approach; if your culture has attempted genocide against Chinese, you deserve to be assimilated and become extinct.
 
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fatzergling

Junior Member
Registered Member
doggydogdo said:
Automation should be used to reduce working hours instead of just giving stuff to the people. Chinese workers work a lot compared to most countries, Chinese work 49 hours a week, which is also why births has fallen by so much in China, they just have no time to take care of kids. The other countries with high working hours like Mexico don't face this problem because their society is still more sexist compare with China and women usually stay home and take care of kids.

Just to put into context how much Chinese work the Soviet Union only use to work 35 hours a week for non-agricultural industries
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In the US, you have jobs where people work 80-100 hours a week in hopes of a large future payment. People work hard in hopes of something more. At the same time, you need a way to absorb workers who want to work very little and have a modest life. Nationalizing the industries that provide essential services (housing, food, transportation), while leaving private competition for luxury goods/services is a good balance between the two.

The USSR was in some ways, very soft with its workers. The USSR guaranteed employment, free housing, and free food. It is partly why the USSR died out. The US can maintain labor discipline with threats of starvation, homelessness, etc.
 
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SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
fatzergling said:
Why not seize the robots directly and distribute the production to the populace?
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That would make China the very first true communist society where wealth and production of work are distributed by needs (按需分配). China certainly has the potential if the country can keep the trajectory of automation without bankrupting the social welfare and securities.
 
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CrazyHorse

Junior Member
Registered Member
fatzergling said:
In the US, you have jobs where people work 80-100 hours a week in hopes of a large future payment. People work hard in hopes of something more. At the same time, you need a way to absorb workers who want to work very little and have a modest life. Nationalizing the industries that provide essential services (housing, food, transportation), while leaving private competition for luxury goods/services is a good balance between the two.

The USSR was in some ways, very soft with its workers. The USSR guaranteed employment, free housing, and free food. It is partly why the USSR died out. The US can maintain labor discipline with threats of starvation, homelessness, etc.
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The SU died because of government incompetence, not because they “didn’t work hard enough”. Raising the backwards russian empire into the future with space travel, nuclear energy, massive hydro projects, a welfare system, better retirement than most Americans can expect, etc requires effort. The US had basically just begun doing neoliberalism which left corporations with insane amounts of money, which helped maintain capitalism. But that is now failing, and the only thing that might save it is some massive war economy shit.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
fatzergling said:
The USSR was in some ways, very soft with its workers. The USSR guaranteed employment, free housing, and free food. It is partly why the USSR died out. The US can maintain labor discipline with threats of starvation, homelessness, etc.
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In Stalin's time you had a certain minimum work quota you had to meet. If you exceeded it you got a bonus. If you did not meet your quota you could be denounced as a wrecker, saboteur, and sent to work in a gulag in Siberia. Then Khrushchev came and decided you should get equal pay for the same profession regardless of how well you worked.
 
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fatzergling

Junior Member
Registered Member
CrazyHorse said:
The SU died because of government incompetence, not because they “didn’t work hard enough”. Raising the backwards russian empire into the future with space travel, nuclear energy, massive hydro projects, a welfare system, better retirement than most Americans can expect, etc requires effort. The US had basically just begun doing neoliberalism which left corporations with insane amounts of money, which helped maintain capitalism. But that is now failing, and the only thing that might save it is some massive war economy shit.
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The fall of the USSR doomed the workers. Without USSR-sponsored movements as a constant threat, the capitalists and corporations could ruthlessly exploit workers without fear. The QoL of the US working class would be much higher if the USSR was still kicking today.

The one hope that the US working class has tbh, is if China takes a similar role to the USSR, which is very unlikely. But things can change rapidly, so I would never assume it's impossible.
 
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Iracundus

New Member
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
In Stalin's time you had a certain minimum work quota you had to meet. If you exceeded it you got a bonus. If you did not meet your quota you could be denounced as a wrecker, saboteur, and sent to work in a gulag in Siberia. Then Khrushchev came and decided you should get equal pay for the same profession regardless of how well you worked.
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The problem was also that the bonus was a one time thing, and then your quota would get adjusted upward since obviously you had just shown you could do more and they would then expect that from you in the future as standard. There was thus a long term disincentive to work hard and only incentive to meet quota to avoid punishment (and sometimes meeting quota would be done by various tricks or false reporting)
 
doggydogdo

doggydogdo

Junior Member
Registered Member
Iracundus said:
The problem was also that the bonus was a one time thing, and then your quota would get adjusted upward since obviously you had just shown you could do more and they would then expect that from you in the future as standard. There was thus a long term disincentive to work hard and only incentive to meet quota to avoid punishment (and sometimes meeting quota would be done by various tricks or false reporting)
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If that was the case, why did Soviet Union grow so fast even with the entire developed world against them?
 
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