Miscellaneous News

TK3600 said:

IMO CPC should move capital from Beijing. Capital is meant to be a defensive administration center. It doesnt need much economy power. Just housing the government worker and feed them is enough. I get Beijing has symbolism, but so does xian. Xian is the perfect compromise between beijing(rich and easy target) and yan'an (extremely defendible)

There is no more eight nation alliance, but naval missiles will hit Beijing far easier than Xi'an. Ballistic missiles will go over many layers of defense to Xian. Not fool proof, but every missile wasted counts.

kinda like Moscow vs St.Petersberg

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Beijing is also very safe through, since after China permanently and stably incorporated Manchuria. An attack on Beijing needs to pass over so many air defenses that it would be nearly impossible. Sure Xian is so well defended that it's functionally on another continent and only hittable with ICBM as far as US would be concerned, but Beijing isn't that much further behind.

It even makes sense from a nuclear defense perspective. If we go with US, we both get annihilated, that is something China has accepted will happen for likely the next 30 years at least. So the capital's position is of no concern in the US scenario. However, China today can almost guaranteed destroy minor nuclear powers like India (or Israel, although there is no scenario Israel would actually try) with 0 or very minor return fire getting through. Against these countries, Beijing is positioned the furthest away possible.

Tse said:

I don't recall Xi'an being brought up at the time. Yongle moved the capital because when he staged the coup against Jianwen, it did it by taking command of all the Great Wall troops, and forming close relationships with many of the Mongol generals who joined the Ming when the Yuan collapsed. If he didn't move the capital to Beijing then someone else will probably pull the same trick as him again. Xi'an only makes sense in the context of the Silk Road and having a fertile agricultural valley with easily defended mountain passes, but from the Tang dynasty the main agricultural area had shifted to Jiangnan and the overland Silk Road was less and less important due to maritime technology. Also, during the Jin & Yuan dynasties the Grand Canal from Henan to Hebei had fallen into disrepair and replaced with the Jiangsu to Hebei Canal, so the capital couldn't even be in Henan which had become too isolated from the grain supply lines to keep an eye on the most crucial lifeline of the dynasty. Just to give you a picture of how important the Grand Canal is: when Zheng Chenggong counterattacked Nanjing in 1656, the Manchus almost decided to retreat to Manchuria because Beijing was going to starve to death without the Jiangnan grain supply.

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valysre said:

I think the substantial mention of architectural work in Xi'an indicates that the capital was to move to Xi'an under the crown prince (who I think died after returning from a tour of Xi'an).
Yeah, the move to Beijing was to return to his center of power.
If the capital had been moved to Xi'an, many of the later foreign attacks on the capital would not have been nearly as easy as they were with the capital in Beijing. That's really my reasoning for capital movement to Xi'an being preferable to movement to Beijing. At least Xi'an could feed itself.

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It was Zhu Yuanzhang's intention in his last days to move to Xi'an. Xi'an was the last place among many others that was considered by Zhu Yuanzhang. The consideration was so serious that he let the crown prince to personally travel to Xi'an who recommended Xi'an as the capital before his death.

《明史-列传第三》载：“二十四年八月，敕太子巡抚陕西……御史胡子祺上书曰：‘……夫据百二河山之险，可以耸诸侯之望，举天下莫关中若也。’帝称善。至是，谕太子曰：‘天下山川惟秦地号为险固，汝往以省观风俗，慰劳秦父老子弟。’……比还，献陕西地图，遂病。病中上言经略建都事。”

The crown prince died before Zhu Yuanzhang who was too old to make the move. The bold texts about "let the heaven to determine the fate" referred to his earlier opinion of Nanjing based dynasties having bad fates.
“今朕年老，精力已倦。又天下新定，不欲劳民。且废兴有数，只得听天！”（《天下郡国利病书·江宁庐州安庆备录·南京》）。

It always comes down to how much it costs? Who believes Tesla's Optimus is going to cost $25K? Elon Musk seems to be entering the PT Barnum stage of life. He doesn't even know if his own Optimus robot will do everything he says it will. How can he say Optimus will soon start building cars...? Does he have a dedicated factory ready for Optimus to build cars to do this? Or is he closing down an existing factory line just to experiment and try this out? Existing industrial non-humanoid robots work a lot faster than any of these humanoid robot demonstrations in just moving around. Hard to believe any of these humanoid robots can produce at an industrial level any where in the near future. So anyone buying these robots are just buying a toy for themselves. And that's where the price comes in.

Temstar said:

I saw someone else talk about this on Twitter some time ago and someone else in the thread then asked the very reasonable question "why did the emperor move the capital?" to which the person talking about duck said "oh that's a really exciting part of Chinese history, it's got more drama than Game of Thrones".

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The question is why Zhu Di moved capital, but the answer is actually that Zhu Yuangzhang never liked Najing as the capital to begin with. Zhu Yuanzhang thought Nanjing was rich but 1. too far from the front line, 2. bad luck due to the fact that all dynasties capitaled in Najing were small and short lived, 3. cramped and bad topology for palace, 4. not in central plain (Zhong Yuan). Right after he declared emperor he began to search alternatives in the order of Kaifeng (old northern Song dynasty), his home town, Beijing and Xi'an. Kaifeng was iliminated due to building from scratch and difficult to defend. He began construction in his home town for 6 years but stopped due to the immense cost which he ignored because he was very home loving. Beijing was iliminated due to extra cost of renovation of Yuan palaces which would be much cheaper than all other alternatives just like Qing used Ming palace. At the end, Xi'an became the chosen alternative.

So the answer is that Nanjing has the least reasons of being a capital except being rich which isn't a reason in the eyes' of emperors who can make anyone and anywhere rich if he want.

TK3600 said:

IMO CPC should move capital from Beijing. Capital is meant to be a defensive administration center. It doesnt need much economy power. Just housing the government worker and feed them is enough. I get Beijing has symbolism, but so does xian. Xian is the perfect compromise between beijing(rich and easy target) and yan'an (extremely defendible)

There is no more eight nation alliance, but naval missiles will hit Beijing far easier than Xi'an. Ballistic missiles will go over many layers of defense to Xian. Not fool proof, but every missile wasted counts.

kinda like Moscow vs St.Petersberg

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I agree. Beijing is just too uncomfortably close to many threats.

This is an interesting thing here:

China joins Brazilian military exercises alongside U.S. troops​

BRASILIA, Sept 10 (Reuters) - Chinese troops will take part for the first time in annual exercises held by Brazil's armed forces this week, training alongside U.S. soldiers, the Brazilian Navy said.

China sent observers last year, but will have troops on the ground this year, the Navy, which coordinates the Operation Formosa exercises, said in a statement, adding that U.S. troops took part in 2023.

"In Operation Formosa 2024 we have for the first time the participation of portions of troops made up of both friendly nations," the Navy said of the two superpowers present this year. It did not detail the size of their contingents.

The Brazilian military will deploy 3,000 troops in the three-day exercises starting on Wednesday, and they will train using aircraft, tanks, armored and amphibious vehicles, artillery and missile and rocket launchers, it said.
The exercises, which use live ammunition, takes place outside the town on Formosa, located 80 km (49.7 miles) northeast of Brazil's capital Brasilia.

Invited military personnel participate in workshops to exchange experiences, the Navy said, and observers from eight countries will attend the exercises, including Argentina, France, Italy, Pakistan and South Africa.

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China will send military personnel for the first time for joint exercises called Operation Formosa with the US and of course Brazil in the town of Formosa. And this exercise is carried out by Brazilian marines and marines of the participants.

This year marks the first time both countries have sent military personnel to the exercise, with 33 from the Chinese Navy and 54 from the US Navy, a Brazilian Armed Forces spokesperson told the Post.

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TK3600 said:

IMO CPC should move capital from Beijing. Capital is meant to be a defensive administration center. It doesnt need much economy power. Just housing the government worker and feed them is enough. I get Beijing has symbolism, but so does xian. Xian is the perfect compromise between beijing(rich and easy target) and yan'an (extremely defendible)

There is no more eight nation alliance, but naval missiles will hit Beijing far easier than Xi'an. Ballistic missiles will go over many layers of defense to Xian. Not fool proof, but every missile wasted counts.

kinda like Moscow vs St.Petersberg

Click to expand...

I think it more important for the capital to be in the most efficient location for governance.

"Core China" is roughly speaking, a circle which is 2000 km across and which is highly densely populated throughout and accounts for the vast majority of China's population. And in the approximate centre is Wuhan.

The population centroid is in Southern Henan, just to the North of Wuhan.

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Wuhan is 800km from the coastline which is closer than Xi'An, but I think is still far enough to be secure. Any attack would have to pass entirely though Shanghai, Fujian or Guangdong first.

Arguably, there are too many air defences and airbases being used to defend Beijing, and which can only be used for this purpose (I'm assuming South Korea is neutral)

If those air defences and air bases were to be redeployed to Eastern Theatre Command and Southern Theatre Command, they could still protect Wuhan and also be used to project power into the Western Pacific.

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Annual Chinese military spending is like $250-300 Billion per year on an exchange rate basis.

If you end up with a 1% increase in the annual "efficiency" of the country by choosing Wuhan over Xi'An, that would be worth an additional $200 Billion per year currently.

So say you increase military spending by $20 Billion annually. That additional military capability more than compensates for the increased vulnerability of Wuhan over Xi'An.

For example, China currently fields an additional carrier group every 5 years. You could accelerate this to 1 per year, plus still have much to spare for other systems.

After 5 years, the Chinese Navy will be in a position to credibly obtain maritime superiority over the 2nd Island Chain.
And in 10 years, the Chinese Navy would likely prevail over the US Navy in a contest for global maritime supremacy.

Sinnavuuty said:

This is an interesting thing here:

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China will send military personnel for the first time for joint exercises called Operation Formosa with the US and of course Brazil in the town of Formosa. And this exercise is carried out by Brazilian marines and marines of the participants.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Click to expand...

Sinnavuuty said:

This is an interesting thing here:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China will send military personnel for the first time for joint exercises called Operation Formosa with the US and of course Brazil in the town of Formosa. And this exercise is carried out by Brazilian marines and marines of the participants.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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GZDRefugee said:

Watch as Brazil offers to mediate peace talks between China and Taiwan like how China did so between Iran and SA.

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It has begun. We're all going to Brazil.

TK3600 said:

IMO CPC should move capital from Beijing. Capital is meant to be a defensive administration center. It doesnt need much economy power. Just housing the government worker and feed them is enough. I get Beijing has symbolism, but so does xian. Xian is the perfect compromise between beijing(rich and easy target) and yan'an (extremely defendible)

There is no more eight nation alliance, but naval missiles will hit Beijing far easier than Xi'an. Ballistic missiles will go over many layers of defense to Xian. Not fool proof, but every missile wasted counts.

kinda like Moscow vs St.Petersberg

Click to expand...

If Beijing is close to threats the solution is to eliminate those threats, not to move the capital.