Minsk and Kiev

Gollevainen · Aug 30, 2005

IDonT said:
My guess is that the PLAN is better off learning from its design and building a more efficient carrier. It is cheaper in the long run.

Well it took soviets three generation of aircapaple ships to get to the Kuznetsov/Varyag class, How would you descripe the ways that china, whit no experience of building even cruiser size warships whatsoever can achomplised something better?

And about the airwing of varyag/kuznetsov, you have to remeber that soviets planned over 20 helicopters abroad and the ship was still capaple to operate 12 Su-33 and 16 Yak-41 (or MiG-29 as it almoust identical in terms of the size whit the Yak-41). Also Soviets planned that the whole airwing was stored under the flightdeck in the hangar (153m x 26). Now the Su-33 is large, even larger than Tomcat, so replacing that whit smaller aircraft you have whole lotta potential in your hands. If you come up whit theoretical airgroup of smaller (even smaller than MiG-29) aircarfts, lets say more like the J-10 size, whit helicopter fleet compered to French and American airwings and taking full potential of the deck parking, then voilÃ¡ you have airwing not so far behind the Midway class.

But that was only theoretical thinking. As i said earlyer, china dosen't yet posses the capapility to make carrier capaple aircrafts, so it have to settle whit the Su-33 (or naval conversion of the J-11). The Varyag is suficient enough to fill the role as first operational carrier of PLAN and in my obinion they should go ahead on that, no more wasting time. If they start to build a carrier from the scrats, it would take a decade or so to get the bluewater version of the PLAN in to the seven seas...

MIGleader · Aug 30, 2005

don't worry. they're getting the 51c's, 956em's, and possibly two maanshans in the near future. it plan can upgrade it's old destroyers to be able to perform long range patro and escort, it can put the more modern ones in a carrier battle group.

you can always buy sea flankers for the carrier, so it should be no big deal.
china does not need a super carrier, but one rather like india's.

32 aircraft will do fine. the plan does not need to project. varyag will alow it to project in asia, but the plans primary opponent will be a US cvbg.

IDonT · Aug 30, 2005

Gollevainen said:
Well it took soviets three generation of aircapaple ships to get to the Kuznetsov/Varyag class, How would you descripe the ways that china, whit no experience of building even cruiser size warships whatsoever can achomplised something better?

And about the airwing of varyag/kuznetsov, you have to remeber that soviets planned over 20 helicopters abroad and the ship was still capaple to operate 12 Su-33 and 16 Yak-41 (or MiG-29 as it almoust identical in terms of the size whit the Yak-41). Also Soviets planned that the whole airwing was stored under the flightdeck in the hangar (153m x 26). Now the Su-33 is large, even larger than Tomcat, so replacing that whit smaller aircraft you have whole lotta potential in your hands. If you come up whit theoretical airgroup of smaller (even smaller than MiG-29) aircarfts, lets say more like the J-10 size, whit helicopter fleet compered to French and American airwings and taking full potential of the deck parking, then voilÃ¡ you have airwing not so far behind the Midway class.

But that was only theoretical thinking. As i said earlyer, china dosen't yet posses the capapility to make carrier capaple aircrafts, so it have to settle whit the Su-33 (or naval conversion of the J-11). The Varyag is suficient enough to fill the role as first operational carrier of PLAN and in my obinion they should go ahead on that, no more wasting time. If they start to build a carrier from the scrats, it would take a decade or so to get the bluewater version of the PLAN in to the seven seas...

It takes more than just changing the size of the aircraft or the composition of the airwing to make this aircraft more efficient.

First, its hanger does not go all the way to the front because that space has the launchers of the SS-19 shipwreck missiles.

Second, its lack of catapult means that more deck area will used to launched the planes than parking. It's whole front end where the ski jump is useless for deck parking.

Money use to refitt this carrier, is better suited somewhere else. Such as, building a brand new one, more destroyers, amphibious assault ships, etc.

MIGleader · Aug 30, 2005

if the plan wants a large, decent carrier and fast, they will use varyag. the job is mostly done for them. compromising some aircraft for anti-ship missles is not necccerily bad. those missles can help the carrier attack other ships and protect itself.

since carriers arn't the future for the plan, getting a few small ones wouldn't hurt.

Neko · Aug 30, 2005

The PLAN doesn't need a full fledged carrier. They could make do with a few good-sized LPHs with maybe some HQ-9 to help defend itself.

Gollevainen · Aug 30, 2005

IDonT said:
It takes more than just changing the size of the aircraft or the composition of the airwing to make this aircraft more efficient.

First, its hanger does not go all the way to the front because that space has the launchers of the SS-19 shipwreck missiles.

Second, its lack of catapult means that more deck area will used to launched the planes than parking. It's whole front end where the ski jump is useless for deck parking.

first of all about those changing aircroups, i was talking about theory. Seccondly i know that the Kuznetsovs hangar leght is limited by the Granit missile battery. The widht of the hangar is the thing most catch my eye, 26 meters (De Gaulle have 29 meters) thats another feature wich tell about the soviets faults on carrier desings...And about the deckpark, If you take closer look of Kuznetsovs landing deck you will notice that theres a plenty of room for deckparking wheter the ski-jump is in full use or not. About 15 planes...

IDonT said:
Money use to refitt this carrier, is better suited somewhere else. Such as, building a brand new one, more destroyers, amphibious assault ships, etc

i'm keen to see your proofs wich you based your believe that China can build it's own aircraft carrier. And refitting Varyag is way less expensive and timeconsuming that starting to desing and build an indegenious carrier.

MIGleader · Aug 30, 2005

according to some sources, china already has at least two indegedous carrier programs. Varyaqg has the potential to hold an adequate force of planes. just cause that the soviets didn't make full use of kutznev dosn't mean the chinese can't.

Gollevainen · Aug 30, 2005

MIGleader said:
according to some sources, china already has at least two indegedous carrier programs. Varyaqg has the potential to hold an adequate force of planes. just cause that the soviets didn't make full use of kutznev dosn't mean the chinese can't.

...yeas the famous "some sources"...but if it's true think about the first indegenious chinese fighter programs...J-10 is the first one even maked to the prototype phase (well the J-12 did it also, but it was born to be useless) after some 40 years....

IDonT · Aug 30, 2005

Gollevainen said:
i'm keen to see your proofs wich you based your believe that China can build it's own aircraft carrier. And refitting Varyag is way less expensive and timeconsuming that starting to desing and build an indegenious carrier.

All I'm saying that the Varyag is a resource hog. Its refit will drain money that is better used for other endevours such as more destroyers, subs, etc.

Gollevainen · Aug 30, 2005

IDonT said:
All I'm saying that the Varyag is a resource hog. Its refit will drain money that is better used for other endevours such as more destroyers, subs, etc.

Well getting aircraft carrier will drain money, wheter it's new or old one being refitted.

Minsk and Kiev

Gollevainen

Colonel

MIGleader

Banned Idiot

IDonT

Senior Member

MIGleader

Banned Idiot

Neko

New Member

Gollevainen

Colonel

MIGleader

Banned Idiot

Gollevainen

Colonel

IDonT

Senior Member

Gollevainen

Colonel