Miragedriver
Brigadier
Of course my friend. To be an F-5E (type) export fighter, they would need to remove one seat and enlarge the radom housing.
Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries
- Thread starter Miragedriver
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Of course my friend. To be an F-5E (type) export fighter, they would need to remove one seat and enlarge the radom housing.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
With the T-50 coming in around 20 to 25 million each. I wonder what the price would be for the Beoing/Saab TX design? 25 to 30 million each?
What interesting is the T-38 would cost around 7 million in 2016 US dollars.
This translates into one thing. Not having enough trainers.
Any thoughts?
What interesting is the T-38 would cost around 7 million in 2016 US dollars.
This translates into one thing. Not having enough trainers.
Any thoughts?
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
you have to consider the age of the T38. It's literally from the Mercury era. This means that it's already dwindling in numbers due to airframe age and the seemingly low unit price hides a heavy investment in resets done in the past to keep the wings from falling off.
Today the USAF operates about 500 of the old girls given today's money 30 million would be a steal.
Today the USAF operates about 500 of the old girls given today's money 30 million would be a steal.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
30 million for a trainer seems excessive. The T-38 would cost $US7 million in current currency (adjusted for inflation).
People have said that millions per T-38 were spent just to keep them flying and updated. However, the question is asked, how many more millions on top of the 30 million per aircraft will be spent to keep the new one flying and updated over the next 30 years?
After all the Yak-130 is around $US15 million (fly away), which sounds more reasonable for a trainer.
People have said that millions per T-38 were spent just to keep them flying and updated. However, the question is asked, how many more millions on top of the 30 million per aircraft will be spent to keep the new one flying and updated over the next 30 years?
After all the Yak-130 is around $US15 million (fly away), which sounds more reasonable for a trainer.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Well, it's the same problem that Argentina has with the old super etenard, Mexico with the F5 and Brazil with Skyhawk. After a while the production line closes and you run out of spares to fix them. Today only Iran is building F5 derivatives. This reduces the options on t38. IE that 7 million dollars per doesn't work because you first need to buy a ton of old birds for spare parts.
Newer aircraft with active production allows buying of spares and access to current engines. Allowing for sustainable operations. And operations are the name of the game. The seemingly low per unit cost doesn't help if they can't fly.
Newer aircraft with active production allows buying of spares and access to current engines. Allowing for sustainable operations. And operations are the name of the game. The seemingly low per unit cost doesn't help if they can't fly.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Sorry old friend. I imagine I didn’t make my statement clear. I was saying that the construction cost of a T-38 in 1961 was around $US750,000. If one were to extrapolate for inflation that same aircraft (with analog controls) would cost around $US7 million to construct.
Given the fact that aircraft now utilize composites and other interesting materials. Plus figure in a glass cockpit, HOTAS system and other improvement, say add another $US7 million +/-. That places you around $US15 million, not $US30 million which is outrageous for a trainer.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
If you really want skewed numbers look at the cost of 2.1 million for an F5E in 1978 or $7,730,286.81 2016. but remember the F5 and T38 rooted from the same program in northrop who aimed to build an aircraft as cheap as absolutely possible that could be maintained and mission readied with a minimum of know how and materials. The Engines of the F5 and T38 are derived from the McDonnell ADM-20 Quail a decoy drone. T38A lacks a Radar so did F5A, It's true! this was considered unnecessary, today you can't leave the ground without a radar and a number of other systems now considered standard.
if you want a better basis than a random number look at the Brazil F5E/F5F buy from Jordan in 2009 21 million for 11 machines followed in 2011 by a 153 million dollar ($163,249,019.00 today) deal for a simulator and upgrades to the birds to modern spec Now simulators cost a lot but I am betting the lions share was the fighters.
perhaps then the Aero L-159 ALCA at $9.5 million i more to your liking?
if you want a better basis than a random number look at the Brazil F5E/F5F buy from Jordan in 2009 21 million for 11 machines followed in 2011 by a 153 million dollar ($163,249,019.00 today) deal for a simulator and upgrades to the birds to modern spec Now simulators cost a lot but I am betting the lions share was the fighters.
perhaps then the Aero L-159 ALCA at $9.5 million i more to your liking?
Miragedriver
Brigadier
What interesting is that it cost the Czech’s $US17 mil (each) to design and build the 72 L159 units, which were then sold at a loss, yet the Russians have a perfectly good Yak-130 for around $US 15 mil+ which can fulfill all the requirements of the US trainer requirement, except being supersonic.
The main point being that $US 30 mil per unit is too expensive. Look at other comparable trainers:
KAI T-50 $US20 mil
Yak-130 $US15 mil+/-
L-15 $US15 mil
Aermacchi M-346 US$35 mil
EADS Mako/HEAT ????
I didn’t include aircraft like the Hawk, L-159, CASA C-101 Aviojet, Mitsubishi T-2 and others since they are not trainers for 4+ generation aircraft.
As I mentioned prior, $US30 seems high. Although the M-346 is at 35 mil, which I don’t know if it is an outlier or just expensive European Labor Union prices.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Remember any contract for these has to be built in the US, That means paying to tool and run a line for them.
The US will also want US made avionics and Radars the prices litsed for most of these are based on there home builders. The T50 is in the Us competition for about 30 mil. that's So Lockheed would open a plant to crank out T50's with US equipment not for the original South Koreans,
Also The US would never buy a Russian or Chinese made aircraft for wide scale use
The US will also want US made avionics and Radars the prices litsed for most of these are based on there home builders. The T50 is in the Us competition for about 30 mil. that's So Lockheed would open a plant to crank out T50's with US equipment not for the original South Koreans,
Also The US would never buy a Russian or Chinese made aircraft for wide scale use
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Agreed amigo.
I was just using the Yak for comparison of price. However, like you said labor rates in the USA are different than is Russia.The Yak-130 would look nice in USA makings, but they could always buy the M-346