Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Miragedriver said:

We can revisit this discussion in five years to see how the Tejas is progressing, or not.

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I think w may know enough in a years time to be able to say one way or another.

I twill all hinge on if the Indian's accept the F-16 deal.

if they do...they will build a lot of F-16s and with Lockheed's help, will build a plant capablke of procucing more aircraft per year...perhaps as many as 40 per year at a minimum if they want to.

That will not necessarily kill the Tejas. it is still an important thing for the Indians to do...on their own in developing their own indigenous capability, learning from it, and advancing beyond it.

The F-16 production going on in India will also help in that regard.

And, quite frankly, the have so many legacy aircraft to replace...they will need the full production of both plants.

Mig-21 - 245
Mig-27 - 120
Jaguar - 145
MIrage 2000 - 50

That's 560 aircraft right there they need to replace during the 2020s.

BTW, Tejas is set to go to 16 per year in 2017 or 2018 I believe.

With the cost of combat aircraft being in the $US25 million to $US110 plus million ( JF-17 to F-22) only first world nations will be able to afford a decent Air Force, and even they cannot afford too many of them.

So how do we deal with a war of attrition? There are a great many good case studies in which air forces or air arms suffered near annihilation, and more than often the combatants qualified as “peer competitors”, entering the conflict with similar technology aircraft and similar numbers.

There will come a time that most if not all air forces will be afraid utilize there combat aircraft for fear of losing them and being unable to replace them. This will severely hamper any commander’s prosecution of a war. Hitting only easy targets and not highly defended ones. Of course we can always utilize drones for strikes. However where does that leave the air superiority aircraft eventually a war of attrition will take place (unless one side is annihilated).

Please hear me out. I am not war mongering here. Just providing a scenario, so please correct me if I am too far off in my thinking. Assume that the USA and mainland China are involved in a conflict (we could use any nations). The USA using the F-22 and F-15C “Golden Eagles” and China using J-10s and J-11.

The USA’s small force (in the region) of F-22s and few upgraded F-15C “Golden Eagles” could be overwhelmed by even the inexpensive and individually less capable machines like the Chinese Chengdu J-10. While the F-22 force could down numerous of Chinese J-10s in a battle with relatives ease, eventually the U.S. aircraft would be overwhelmed as they run out of missiles—especially if they are not killing those enemy aircraft one-for-one with their missiles. The Chinese—like the Russians—have fairly formidable electronic attack capabilities including DRFM jammers. But while China can afford to lose hundreds of J-10s, the USA only has 143 operational Raptors. It’s a strategy that worked for the Soviet Union during the Second World War; it could certainly work for China, or other nations in a war of attrition.

This would be a basis of an argument for many inexpensive but capable combat aircraft that could replace loss in a war of attrition and be used as an inexpensive aircraft to see to allied nations.

Any thoughts

We will revisit your prediction to see if it has come to fruition. However at 8 aircraft per year it will take 12.8 years to produce 120 aircraft (counting the 17 already produced)

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16 from next year onwards.

this was what the government submitted in the parliament



it all depends on HAL


this is an old video of the production line

Miragedriver said:

The USA using the F-22 and F-15C “Golden Eagles” and China using J-10s and J-11.

The USA’s small force (in the region) of F-22s and few upgraded F-15C “Golden Eagles” could be overwhelmed by even the inexpensive and individually less capable machines like the Chinese Chengdu J-10. While the F-22 force could down numerous of Chinese J-10s in a battle with relatives ease, eventually the U.S. aircraft would be overwhelmed as they run out of missiles—especially if they are not killing those enemy aircraft one-for-one with their missiles.

The Chinese—like the Russians—have fairly formidable electronic attack capabilities including DRFM jammers. But while China can afford to lose hundreds of J-10s, we only have 143 operational Raptors. It’s a strategy that worked for the Soviet Union during the Second World War; it could certainly work for China, or other nations in a war of attrition.

This would be a basis of an argument for many inexpensive but capable combat aircraft that could replace loss in a war of attrition and be used as an inexpensive aircraft to see to allied nations.

Any thoughts

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This current admin made a mistake of historical proportions when it curtailed F-22 production.

That it is why the US now MUST buy on the order of 3,000 F-35 altogether, and is also coninuing to build F-178s.

The US has hundreds of F-18s available through the Navy. Allied forces have a LOT f F-15s, and the 4.5+ gen variety.

But it is the F-35 that will be the most prolific 5th generation out there...and that's a good thing.

aksha said:

16 from next year onwards.

this was what the government submitted in the parliament

it all depends on HAL


this is a one year old video of the production line

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I honestly hope India is successful with the Tejas, that they end up with 250 or more of those aircraft, and another 300+ F-16s. Those coupled wtih 300 SU-30s will allow the Indian Air Force to maintain a credible force structure for the entire nation as they move towrds a 5th gen aircraft.

Jeff Head said:

I honestly hope India is successful with the Tejas, that they end up with 250 or more of those aircraft, and another 300+ F-16s. Those coupled wtih 300 SU-30s will allow the Indian Air Force to maintain a credible force structure for the entire nation as they move towrds a 5th gen aircraft.

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Also having three types of aircraft, Tejas, F-16 and Su-30 (since the mig-21 will be gone and most likely the mirage 2000 and Mig-29 also) will make maintenance and logistics easier.

Miragedriver said:

Also having three types of aircraft, Tejas, F-16 and Su-30 (since the mig-21 will be gone and most likely the mirage 2000 and Mig-29 also) will make maintenance and logistics easier.

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Agreed...which is something INdia needs to do, and they know they need to do it.

I was thinking today about the 12 Mirage F-1, that the FAA will purchase from France, as a place holder for a future replacement of the A-4s and Mirage. Being the cynical and pragmatic person that I am, I know that there will not be a plan for a replacement and then the FAA will be retaining these venerable Mirage F-1 (venerable due to the old air frames).

Since the FAA is very familiar with the Mirage air frame the most logical step is to continue with this aircraft and build up a sizeable force to deter Chile from any “expeditions”.

This would not be the most modern force, but upgraded to modern level with radar, ECM, missiles (both BVR and WVR. It would serve to deter expansionism and provide a stepping stone to the fabrication of a domestic aircraft (most likely a license production) as these aircraft wear out.

Procurement as follows:

1) Purchase of the 12 ADA Mirage F-1 (supposedly in negotiations)

2) Purchase the 36 Mirage F-1’s from Jordan (34 single seat and 2 two seat). These aircraft have very low hours and could all be utilized

3) Purchase of the 12 Mirage F-1’s from Spain to utilize as a source of spare parts

4) Purchase the retired 68 Mirage V’s from Egypt. Refurbish 48 and use the reset as a source of spares.

This would satisfy the needs of the FAA and provide an equal number of aircraft for air defense and strike.

Any thoughts?

Miragedriver said:

I was thinking today about the 12 Mirage F-1, that the FAA will purchase from France, as a place holder for a future replacement of the A-4s and Mirage. Being the cynical and pragmatic person that I am, I know that there will not be a plan for a replacement and then the FAA will be retaining these venerable Mirage F-1 (venerable due to the old air frames).

Since the FAA is very familiar with the Mirage air frame the most logical step is to continue with this aircraft and build up a sizeable force to deter Chile from any “expeditions”.

This would not be the most modern force, but upgraded to modern level with radar, ECM, missiles (both BVR and WVR. It would serve to deter expansionism and provide a stepping stone to the fabrication of a domestic aircraft (most likely a license production) as these aircraft wear out.

Procurement as follows:

1) Purchase of the 12 ADA Mirage F-1 (supposedly in negotiations)

2) Purchase the 36 Mirage F-1’s from Jordan (34 single seat and 2 two seat). These aircraft have very low hours and could all be utilized

3) Purchase of the 12 Mirage F-1’s from Spain to utilize as a source of spare parts

4) Purchase the retired 68 Mirage V’s from Egypt. Refurbish 48 and use the reset as a source of spares.

This would satisfy the needs of the FAA and provide an equal number of aircraft for air defense and strike.

Any thoughts?

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1/ I am French and enough well informed ... never i have see serious things for Mirage F-1
Only a time Super-Etendard for spares.

I see much things for Kfir Block 60 not young but good. in the 4 deal you mention it is the best way
Colombia, have Kfir C10/12, Ecuador C-10 very modernised decent ofc don' t want by ex a Su-30.

Jeff Head said:

I honestly hope India is successful with the Tejas, that they end up with 250 or more of those aircraft, and another 300+ F-16s. Those coupled wtih 300 SU-30s will allow the Indian Air Force to maintain a credible force structure for the entire nation as they move towrds a 5th gen aircraft.

Click to expand...

I wonder if the Trump administration would pressure LM to pull back F16 manufacturing in India back to the US.