Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

My sentiments exactly (Heavy sigh)! First the disaster of purchasing (nearly expired) Mirage F-1s as payback to Spain and then the Kfir deal.

They should have gone with the JF-17 production, worked with Brazil on a assemble of a joint fighter and take advantage of the economies of scale, or purchase cheap Mig-29s and have the Israeli’s modify them to snipers.

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Both JF-17 and Mig-29 are NOT simple planes like Kfir.

Each of them represents a humongous national aviation industry and its various related complete value chains respectively, which is 10X more systematic and powerful than Israel's.

Buying either JF-17 or (used) mig-29 will not require you to ask a thrid party (e.g. Israel) to "modify" it, which involves extra costs AND potential troubles, both technical and political.

If you must modify/customise JF-17 or Mig-29, IMO, just like autos, the original manufacturer Chengdu or MIG can logically do it cheaper and more effectively than a middleman.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

Buying either JF-17 or (used) mig-29 will not require you to ask a thrid party (e.g. Israel) to "modify" it, which involves extra costs AND potential troubles, both technical and political.

If you must modify/customise JF-17 or Mig-29, IMO, just like autos, the original manufacturer Chengdu or MIG can logically do it cheaper and more effectively than a middleman.

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You would think that it would be the logical approach, but ever since the israelis played around the Mirage IIIs/Vs and built Kifrs, that sort of thinking/approach has gone out the window.

Sure, the original manufacturers would place prohibitive clause, to deter any foreign country/defence-company from modifying their aircraft. But then again, it didn't stop israel when it modified the Mirages.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Dizasta1 said:

You would think that it would be the logical approach, but ever since the israelis played around the Mirage IIIs/Vs and built Kifrs, that sort of thinking/approach has gone out the window.

Sure, the original manufacturers would place prohibitive clause, to deter any foreign country/defence-company from modifying their aircraft. But then again, it didn't stop israel when it modified the Mirages.

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The thought/approach that Israeli firms could somehow manage to modify Mig-29 or JF-17 later to the request of clients is laughable for many good reasons:

1. Made-in-France gears have been notoriously expansive historically, or to say that they have very low quality/price ratios. In the old days, people bought them because there were fewer options in the market. Nowadays prehaps only filthyly rich Gulf Arabs and incrediblely intelligent Indians could afford buying Made-in-France planes. (how many Rafale sold up to now?) This created a niche market where a 3rd-party "secret scavenger" was needed to meet clients' special needs on exisiting 2nd & 3rd gen old French planes in int'l market with much reduced price tags than France would have charged for the same job - this is where Israelis came in.

2. However, on Mig-29 and JF-17 case, is the profit margin large enough for Israel to offer the same or highter quality/price ratio on Made-in-Russia or Made-in-China planes than Russia and China themselves, given the two have already attractive quality/price ratios, particularly to beat the lengendary "China Price"? I don't think so.

3. 1 step back, even assume that there is still some profit margin left for Israeli consultants to take on this kind of the deals, are they competent enough to modify made-in-China or Made-in-Russia technically? I highly doubt it, because even more than France, Russia and China are the only 2 countries with the complete industrial "eco system" (with all the sub value chains) in the world except the US. Israeli consultants would be WAY off their depth to even consider such things.

4. 2 steps back, even assume that there are some incredible Israeli consultants who know everything China and Russia know about the planes technically and have all the technical production facilities to make anything that modification requires, there still will be a problem of economy of scale. It's like when you bought a Ford Focus and wants to customise it with better tires and interior deco, it's cheaper to pay you local garage (Israel) for the modification. However, when you have 100 Ford Focus wanted to be modified, wouldn't a Ford Focus factory be better equipped to do the job more economically?

5. Unlike museum-level Mirage IIIs/Vs or Kifrs on which many firms including Isralis could easily play around technically, Mig-29 and JF-17 are moden 4th gen planes with modern technologies. After all, has Israel produced any 4th-gen plane? So, would either the Russians or the Chinese open the source codes of Mig-29 and JF-17 for Israel to freely play with in order to do any meaningful modification in the first place? I don't think so.

... i can go on

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

@Speeder , you keep forgetting about powerful Israeli lobby in US politics . Many of the things Israelis sell are in fact American technology . Now about those upgrades : Countries like Romania (Mig-21) and India (Mig-29,Su-30 ) wanted Western equipment for their aircraft . Romania joined NATO so they need certain level of interoperability . India perceived Western equipment as better then equivalent Russian . Russia and China on the other hand advertise their planes as compatible with Western upgrades . They probably don't like that , but you have to do everything possible to satisfy potential buyer .

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

thunderchief said:

@Speeder , you keep forgetting about powerful Israeli lobby in US politics . Many of the things Israelis sell are in fact American technology . Now about those upgrades : Countries like Romania (Mig-21) and India (Mig-29,Su-30 ) wanted Western equipment for their aircraft . Romania joined NATO so they need certain level of interoperability . India perceived Western equipment as better then equivalent Russian . Russia and China on the other hand advertise their planes as compatible with Western upgrades . They probably don't like that , but you have to do everything possible to satisfy potential buyer .

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I am not keep forgetting....it is you and some others who are keep godifying Israeli consultants as if their ad-hoc is a must. They are good at adding some millsiles or systems on some old planes, but it doesn't mean they can do the same with Mig-29 or JF-17.

Since most of Israeli consultants' stuff are eventually from the US anyway ( so the stuff they add on will have no use in a real war when the client really needs them, except daily catwalk in peace time) , why not just directly buy F-16 instead to save all the troubles? That's what I would do if I were Argentina: but F-16 from the US.

If Argentina does't trust the US, why the heck they trust Israel(a middleman from the US with mostly US tech hence eventually controlled by the Pentagon whenever a conflict arises) at the same time?

Furthermore, even if Israeli consultants have capability moving the entire Pentagon arsenals to the potential client (e.g. Argentina), without source codes of JF-17 and Mig-29, they still can't add anything meaningful more than a cosmetic lipstick, potentially big price tag and political fallout aside.

The gist is: modification of JF-17 or Mig-29 alike is fundamentally different from modification of post-WW2 era old Mirages and Kfir that Isralis are good at. Legality aside, why India has to pay astronomical $50m a piece for merely upgrading of M2K instead of looking for Israeli consultants to do it?

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Speeder said:

Since most of Israeli consultants' stuff are eventually from the US anyway ( so the stuff they add on will have no use in a real war when the client really needs them, except daily catwalk in peace time) , why not just directly buy F-16 instead to save all the troubles? That's what I would do if I were Argentina: but F-16 from the US.

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Argentina didn't buy F-16 mainly because of relatively high price they didn't want to pay . Refurbished and upgraded F-16s are still costly . Add to that price of maintenance , training , additional equipment ... Argentinian government simply doesn't want to spend that much money on defense (you could ask Miragedriver for details ) .

Speeder said:

The gist is: modification of JF-17 or Mig-29 alike is fundamentally different from modification of post-WW2 era old Mirages and Kfir that Isralis are good at. Legality aside, why India has to pay astronomical $50m a piece for merely upgrading of M2K instead of looking for Israeli consultants to do it?

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India does use Israeli equipment on their Su-30MKI , Mig-21 Bison and Mig-29K . Reasons for high price of Mirage-2000 upgrade are unclear (there are allegations of corruption) but supposedly cost includes ToT , infrastructure and weapons .

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

thunderchief said:

Argentina didn't buy F-16 mainly because of relatively high price they didn't want to pay . Refurbished and upgraded F-16s are still costly . Add to that price of maintenance , training , additional equipment ... Argentinian government simply doesn't want to spend that much money on defense (you could ask Miragedriver for details ).

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The interesting bit is that Argentina was offered F-16s by the USA, not once, but twice. The “official” excuse was fear of debris ingestion from the underbody air intake (this is pure s@#t). Chile purchased 10 new F-16 from America (at a high price) and 38 F-16 MLU from the Dutch for around $US10 million each.

From what I have been told (take it with a grain of salt) is that these 38 will be updated by Israel (cost not know). Even if the cost is $US5 million, that means that for around $US15 million you could have an F-16 at just past mid-life, or have paid $US11 for end of life Mirage F-1s and $US20 million for Kfir Block 60.

Personally I believe Chile made the better purchase. Even if the F-16s have a high operational cost, they are still less expensive to purchase and there is one aircraft type, not two which simplifies logistics and maintenance.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Chile purchased 10 new F-16 from America (at a high price) and 38 F-16 MLU from the Dutch for around $US10 million each.

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Chile bought second-hand 18 F-16 MLU for a price of $ 278 million (just planes ) in 2010 and 18 before that for $180 million but they paid $ 660 million for 10 new F-16s Block 50 in 2003. Dutch planes were relatively cheap because they were used and needed refurbishing . New planes in 2003 came with logistic support (training , tools , manuals , spares ...) and without that support Chile would not be able to operate any F-16 . When Chileans absorbed that it was relatively easy to integrate new planes of the same type .

On the other hand , Romania is acquiring 16 used Portuguese F-16 AM/BM for hefty price of $ 817 million , but that includes before mentioned logistic support because Romanians never operated this warplane . Argentina would be in similar situation - introduction of any new plane requires additional cost . I believe this was one of the reasons they selected Kfir - this type is relatively familiar to Argentinian ground personnel which maintained Neshers(Daggers) and Mirages .

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

thunderchief said:

Chile bought second-hand 18 F-16 MLU for a price of $ 278 million (just planes ) in 2010 and 18 before that for $180 million but they paid $ 660 million for 10 new F-16s Block 50 in 2003. Dutch planes were relatively cheap because they were used and needed refurbishing . New planes in 2003 came with logistic support (training , tools , manuals , spares ...) and without that support Chile would not be able to operate any F-16 . When Chileans absorbed that it was relatively easy to integrate new planes of the same type .

On the other hand , Romania is acquiring 16 used Portuguese F-16 AM/BM for hefty price of $ 817 million , but that includes before mentioned logistic support because Romanians never operated this warplane . Argentina would be in similar situation - introduction of any new plane requires additional cost . I believe this was one of the reasons they selected Kfir - this type is relatively familiar to Argentinian ground personnel which maintained Neshers(Daggers) and Mirages .

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Very true. Just like the integration of the Mirage F-1 (as a filler aircraft) with the ATAR-9 engine. The only major difference is the General Electric J-79-J1E turbojet. Air frame wise it is almost identical

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Below is a comparison of the Kifr and the Nesher. The purchase of the Mirage F-1 was a political move to appease Spain over the YPF nationalization. However, a purchase of 40 Kfirs would have been a better move compared to just 18 Kfir and 20 old Mirage F-1s

(The date below is a reprint from Jane's All The World's Aircraft and from Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft)

IAI Kfir
Data from Jane's All The World's Aircraft
General characteristics
• Crew: One
• Length: 15.65 m (51 ft 4¼ in)
• Wingspan: 8.22 m (26 ft 11½ in)
• Height: 4.55 m (14 ft 11¼ in)
• Wing area: 34.8 m² (374.6 sq ft)
• Empty weight: 7,285 kg (16,060 lb)
• Loaded weight: 11,603 kg (25,580 lb) two 500 L drop tanks, two AAMs
• Max. takeoff weight: 16,200 kg (35,715 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × IAl Bedek-built General Electric J-79-J1E turbojet
o Dry thrust: 52.9 kN (11,890 lb st)
o Thrust with afterburner: 79.62 kN (17,900 lb st)
Performance
• Maximum speed: 2,440 km/h (2 Mach, 1,317 knots, 1,516 mph) above 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
• Combat radius: 768 km (415 nmi, 477 mi)(ground attack, hi-lo-hi profile, seven 500 lb bombs, two AAMs, two 1,300 L drop tanks)
• Service ceiling: 17,680 m (58,000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 233 m/s (45,950 ft/min)
Armament
• Guns: 2× Rafael-built 30 mm (1.18 in) DEFA 553 cannons, 140 rounds/gun
• Rockets: assortment of unguided air-to-ground rockets including the Matra JL-100 drop tank/rocket pack, each with 19× SNEB 68 mm rockets and 66 US gallons (250 liters) of fuel
• Missiles: 2× AIM-9 Sidewinders or Shafrir or Python-series AAMs; 2× Shrike ARMs; 2× AGM-65 Maverick ASMs
• Bombs: 5,775 kg (12,730 lb) of payload on nine external hardpoints, including bombs such as the Mark 80 series, Paveway series of LGBs, Griffin LGBs, SMKBs,[28] TAL-1 OR TAL-2 CBUs, BLU-107 Matra Durandal, reconnaissance pods or Drop tanks

Specifications IAI Nesher
Data from Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft
General characteristics
• Crew: 1
• Length: 15.55 m (51 ft 0¼ in)
• Wingspan: 8.22 m (26 ft 11⅝ in)
• Height: 4.50 m (14 ft 9 in)
• Wing area: 35.00 m² (376.8 ft²)
• Empty weight: 7,150 kg (15,763 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,700 kg (30,203 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × SNECMA Atar 09C turbojet
o Dry thrust: 41.97 kN (9,436 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 60.80 kN (13,688 lbf)
Performance
• Maximum speed: Mach 2.2[28] (2,350 km/h, 1,268 knots, 1,460 mph) at 12,000 m (39,400 ft)
• Cruise speed: 956 km/h (516 knots, 594 mph)
• Combat radius: 1,250 km (675 nmi, 777 mi)hi-lo-hi profile, payload two 400 kg bomb and max external fuel
• Ferry range: 4,000 km[28](2,158 nmi, 2,485 mi)
• Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,055 ft)
• Rate of climb: 186 m/s (36,600 ft/min)
Armament
• Guns: 2× 30 mm (1.18 in) DEFA 552 cannons with 125 rounds per gun
• Rockets: 2× Matra JL-100 drop tank/rocket pack, each with 19× SNEB 68 mm rockets and 66 US gallons (250 liters) of fuel
• Missiles: 2× AIM-9 Sidewinders OR Matra R550 Magics
• Bombs: 8,800 lb (4,000 kg) of payload on five external hardpoints, including a variety of bombs, reconnaissance pods or Drop tanks