Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: A low-cost, multi-role fighter needed for smaller militaries

Jeff Head said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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Guys, there are four active threads, all started by Miragedriver, that all revolve around the same theme. I have combined all of those into this newer thread that he posted today, and am calling it:

"New low-cost, muti-role aircraft needed for smaller militaries"

The following threads all have their discussions here, and those discussions can all be continued under this umbrella.

- Low cost battlefied Attack Aircraft for smaller militaries
- New life to older aircraft.
- New Interceptors for Argentine Air Force.
- Need for another "People's Fighter," Mig-21 or F-5E type.




>>>>>>>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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Thanks.
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Thank you Jeff!

Sorry for any inconvenience I caused. I will be more diligent with my threads in the future.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: Need for another “peoples fighter” MiG-21 or F-5E type

B.I.B. said:
Is the technology developed enough for one to place complete reliance on UAVs to defend ones airspace?. For one thing how good would the situation awareness be for the UAV operator?.

Just out of interest, is Argentina at odds with any of her neighbours?
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Not that I am aware of. We just need to replace the aging aircraft (should I say flying museum pieces) or become a 4th class air force.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: Need for another “peoples fighter” MiG-21 or F-5E type

It's my opinion that the answer to the peoples fighter is already emerging in the form of combat capable trainers like the FA50 from south Korea as well as Coin aircraft and types like the FC-1 and the New Scorpion.
Remember these so called fighters mostly spend there time as bombers or hanger queens I don't see any reason that's likely to change in the future.

No there is one other factor I want to point to. I suspect that some nations my infact move away form retaining there own Air forces. As Mace Said It's not cheep to train and maintain readiness for conflict. I Suspect part of the Solution for this will be Private Air forces. Bands of well trained retired military pilots who for a fee will be granted to a nation complete with aircraft and armament.
 
B

B.I.B.

Captain
Re: Need for another “peoples fighter” MiG-21 or F-5E type

TerraN_EmpirE said:
No there is one other factor I want to point to. I suspect that some nations my infact move away form retaining there own Air forces. As Mace Said It's not cheep to train and maintain readiness for conflict. I Suspect part of the Solution for this will be Private Air forces. Bands of well trained retired military pilots who for a fee will be granted to a nation complete with aircraft and armament.
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Mercenries? How would that work and who decides? There,s already talk that people who go off and fight other peoples wars will run the risk of being arrested or have their citizenship taken off them when they return home.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Re: Need for another “peoples fighter” MiG-21 or F-5E type

B.I.B. said:
Mercenries? How would that work and who decides? There,s already talk that people who go off and fight other peoples wars will run the risk of being arrested or have their citizenship taken off them when they return home.
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It's nothing new. historically speaking it Standing armies as we know them today are a relatively new invention. How would it work? It's already started. In Iraq and Afghanistan Blackwater operated there own Helicopters and even Super Tucano aircraft. In the First Congo War (1996–1997) and Second Congo War (1998-2004) it's known that mercenary pilots flew Mig 21s and F7's. the only thing I see is expansion to be a Air force for hire Contracting, corporate headquarters, procurement of aircraft it's already realistic. as to revoking of citizen ship that would depend on who the contract was to.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The modern Mercenary is nothing like the dog of war of the past, and for a nation who for whatever reason may decide to give up and contract out its military there are any number of options. B.i.b. The first step is what kind of nation. If a nation has the money to hire green collars its got to have resources or some level of economic stability. It also has to be in a position to allow trade and business to continue. Embargo by the west would likely scare off a for profit company.

first the ministry of defense for a nation would identify the need and would contact a Private Military Company and begin negotiations. The PMC would need a airbase to operate from. This could be part of a civilian airport a military airbase or a base converted from a strip of highway.
Next the PMC would want access to a air surveillance system that can cover it's areas of responsibility. This could be supplied by the nation with a existing system or could be contracted for. Intelligence as to operations and situations. then Hangers, fuel and ammo bunkers to maintain arm and operate aircraft. Offices and lodging for there staff. Maintenance could be in house meaning mechanics are part of the company or subcontracted to a third party. The PMC would want security around there base this could come from the local army, or PMCs once again either in house or subcontractors.
the PMC would finally want to establish a logistical train. Spare parts, fuel, food, water, communications and all the other things needed to support there operations.
the PMC in turn would fly in pilots and aircraft. Likely multirole type fighter's. Likely in the lighter weight classes. the flight crew members would likely be former military, American, British, Israeli, Russian the key factors being experienced pilots. Alongside them would likely be a CSAR team with helicopters. Depending on how horizontal enveloped the PMC is they might also offer other mission sets like helicopter transports, cargo shipping and recon and surveillance.
operations would likely be restricted to "defensive" this means they could only fly in the internationally recognized boarders of there contracting host nation. But this also means that they could presumably operate in those boarders against threats. This means Coin operations, close air support and air superiority.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The modern Mercenary is nothing like the dog of war of the past, and for a nation who for whatever reason may decide to give up and contract out its military there are any number of options. B.i.b. The first step is what kind of nation. If a nation has the money to hire green collars its got to have resources or some level of economic stability. It also has to be in a position to allow trade and business to continue. Embargo by the west would likely scare off a for profit company.

first the ministry of defense for a nation would identify the need and would contact a Private Military Company and begin negotiations. The PMC would need a airbase to operate from. This could be part of a civilian airport a military airbase or a base converted from a strip of highway.
Next the PMC would want access to a air surveillance system that can cover it's areas of responsibility. This could be supplied by the nation with a existing system or could be contracted for. Intelligence as to operations and situations. then Hangers, fuel and ammo bunkers to maintain arm and operate aircraft. Offices and lodging for there staff. Maintenance could be in house meaning mechanics are part of the company or subcontracted to a third party. The PMC would want security around there base this could come from the local army, or PMCs once again either in house or subcontractors.
the PMC would finally want to establish a logistical train. Spare parts, fuel, food, water, communications and all the other things needed to support there operations.
the PMC in turn would fly in pilots and aircraft. Likely multirole type fighter's. Likely in the lighter weight classes. the flight crew members would likely be former military, American, British, Israeli, Russian the key factors being experienced pilots. Alongside them would likely be a CSAR team with helicopters. Depending on how horizontal enveloped the PMC is they might also offer other mission sets like helicopter transports, cargo shipping and recon and surveillance.
operations would likely be restricted to "defensive" this means they could only fly in the internationally recognized boarders of there contracting host nation. But this also means that they could presumably operate in those boarders against threats. This means Coin operations, close air support and air superiority.
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Not to be contradictory, but let me pose some questions:

Private Air Force may be good for some nations to act as a border patrol or protect against foreign incursions in airspace and say fishery protection. With that said if a state hires mercenary pilots and support personnel to defend a nation from foreign attack/intervention may be a good Idea. However let’s take this to the next step. If the invaded or attacked nation is under complete surprise and the beginning of the conflict is going poorly, one must ask the question if monetary compensation is a sufficient motivator to ensure cooperative loyal pilots?

A military person is much more likely to give his best energy to a cause if he feels passionate about it. The allure of money for military services often decreases when lives are at stake. Mercenaries are also less likely to accept the authority of an Air Marshal than pilots fighting for God, home and country.

However I digress from the original theme of low cost muti-roll aircraft.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Half or more of the cost of a modern fighter is in the sensor/avionics/software/weapons package, and as time progresses, this is likely to become the dominant cost factor in the game, if current trends are followed. The cost penalties between airframe sizes will become secondary to the cost penalties between sensor/avionics/weapons packages. In order to reduce the cost of aircraft perhaps we need to revert back to having two types of combat aircraft; the air superiority aircraft and the strike aircraft. Instead of having one multi roll aircraft (like the Gripen which is a wonderful multi-roll aircraft at $US60M) that cost too much. Given the small size of such packages today, even a small airframe can fit a highly competitive package.

This is the context in which a modern fighter (for sake of discussion let’s take about an air superiority aircraft) must be assessed. How well does the sensor package fit the mission, how well does the airframe fit the mission, how well is the package blended together, how well the airframe and sensor package can support the weapons carried. Additionally can this package be ease to maintain like the Gripen, F-5E, MiG-21, or Jaguar?

Consider an aircraft that just carries say 4 Sidewinder type missiles; 2 to 4 Sparrow type missiles and a drop tank. With modern construction techniques and the relatively lite load the construction would be simple and lite weight, thereby smaller and requiring a smaller engine to provide a good thrust to weight ratio.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
That's not always true Mirage, The call of for god and country in a destabilized state is not always a really good call. In Syria early on a number of Ranking military members tossed there lot in with the FSA when it looked like Assad was on the loosing end. these same people abandoned there posts again when the situation shifted again.
In Afghanistan loyalties changed often as the winds of battle changed as well.
the risk of a standing army abandoning there posts is likely about the same as a Merc doing the same.
Remember large PMC's today are not brands of war junkies out for money. they are often multinational corporations hiring personal primarily of former military backgrounds. Dependent upon continuing contracts from their clients. If they just up and switched sides or abandoned there missions, its likely the company would be bankrupted as clients bailed on them and demanded there deposits back. but as you said that's another topic for another conversation, One that may sooner rather then later become a necessity to be had.

Although specialized fighters might seem a option, I think multirole or perhaps more emphasized to ground attack with limited Air to Air is more likely to be the way. Nations looking to a entry level fighter are not likely to be squaring off against full world class air forces. at best there most likely mission need is Counter insurgency if they do face a Air threat they will either be so out classed against a major power that what fight they could put up would be swatted form the skies or destroyed on the ground. where they could be of use is against equivalent or lesser states. So really few would need or want air superiority or could afford it. Bombs will grace the wings of Entry level fighters more then missiles, and when missiles do grace the wings they will be cheap.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
TerraN_EmpirE said:
Although specialized fighters might seem a option, I think multirole or perhaps more emphasized to ground attack with limited Air to Air is more likely to be the way. Nations looking to a entry level fighter are not likely to be squaring off against full world class air forces. at best there most likely mission need is Counter insurgency if they do face a Air threat they will either be so out classed against a major power that what fight they could put up would be swatted form the skies or destroyed on the ground. where they could be of use is against equivalent or lesser states. So really few would need or want air superiority or could afford it. Bombs will grace the wings of Entry level fighters more then missiles, and when missiles do grace the wings they will be cheap.
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I was thinking of an aircraft along the lines of the ALR Piranha suited for the air superiority type aircraft with a limited strike roll. With the increasing level of miniaturization and declining cost of high performance embedded computers have translated into vastly smarter and more capable missile systems, which could be carried in a smaller (point defense) aircraft that would be less expensive to buy and operate. Of course on the other side it would have reduced range and carrying capability.

Like I was posting before, a small aircraft that can defend the nation and go head to head with a 4+ generation aircraft. Remember I’m thinking of defense, and smaller nations with smaller budgets, or even a larger nation (poorer) with greater numbers of these types of aircraft (either by themselves or as a supplement to a core of F-16’s or MiG-29).
 
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