Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

RQ-4 Global Hawk and the EuroHawk variant are SIGINT and surveillance aircrafts that can be armed and reach higher than any fighter or AWAC aircrafts. Since the introduction of Cassidian passive radar system, SIGINT can include tremendous radar detection capabilities without emission and thus low probability of being seen. Using the emission from an AWACS would increase the detection range of the combination in one direction. Much more SIGINT is provided by the friend-foe identification communication in order to avoid fratricide. There has recently been an official German MOD statement that all future drones will be capable to be armed because only such drones are in the international market in the foreseeable future. Israel has extensive drone programms with their previous employment in fighting Syrian anti-air-access systems to a shutdown that did include SIGINT and EW drones.
Operation Mole Cricket 19 is an example of doing it in an earlier time without drones and Operation Orchard does include drones with things like the Suter programm among other tools.

I want to higlight the immense benefits of integration of an aircraft carrier in any situation in this region. STOBAR is an affordable solution and you can scale down demands to the size and costs of a Cavour or Principe de Asturias. Most carriers are totally overengineered for this situation because they are meant to operate independent in not so near places. Throw out most things unnecessary to having just a floating airfield with the self-defence of a frigate. Leaving out most of the electronic and catapult stuff associated with complicated fixed wing fighter aircraft operations makes carriers really cheap. Intelligence and directions should come in large part from nearby land installations. It's a naval bastion concept (pioneered by the Soviets around Murmansk), a defensive sea-land interaction to deny enemy access used for limited offence on nearby territory in order to increase the interdiction range. Interdiction does include a massive investment into airborne submarine hunting. The number of fighters on deck of such a carrier will be very small at any given time - in between 6 to 12 and only the cooperation with land based naval aircrafts that can use the carrier will give it the punch.

You totally overrate my knowledge, I'm a noob and modern warfare is not that much of my fields of expertise. We have much better minds on this forum and the analysis has a lot of flaws.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

FYI, some reports indicated that the Venezuelan Su-30's were used; they were apparently from a batch of Su-30MK2's that were rejected by the Chinese. Otherwise, there was no way Sukhoi would have been able to deliver Su-30's to the Venezuelans so quickly after the order was placed.

Thank you. That makes a lot of sense, since they did acquire 24 aircraft very quickly and now have been waiting for so time on the remaining 12
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

I want to higlight the immense benefits of integration of an aircraft carrier in any situation in this region. STOBAR is an affordable solution and you can scale down demands to the size and costs of a Cavour or Principe de Asturias. Most carriers are totally overengineered for this situation because they are meant to operate independent in not so near places. Throw out most things unnecessary to having just a floating airfield with the self-defence of a frigate. Leaving out most of the electronic and catapult stuff associated with complicated fixed wing fighter aircraft operations makes carriers really cheap. Intelligence and directions should come in large part from nearby land installations. It's a naval bastion concept (pioneered by the Soviets around Murmansk), a defensive sea-land interaction to deny enemy access used for limited offence on nearby territory in order to increase the interdiction range. Interdiction does include a massive investment into airborne submarine hunting. The number of fighters on deck of such a carrier will be very small at any given time - in between 6 to 12 and only the cooperation with land based naval aircrafts that can use the carrier will give it the punch.

I do not wish to be contradictory, but maybe you can help convince me that an aircraft carrier for Argentina would be a good investment. I will present my opinions why there could be a better allocation of Navy funds and can reply to my assumptions.

1) I see the aircraft carrier as expensive target, that is hard to hide, and easy find and to sink or disable.

2) If the objective is to deny the enemy excess to the proximity of your coast line, then It would be less expensive, and possible more cost effective to acquire a couple of squadrons of long range strike aircraft.

3) Purchase maritime patrol/reconance’s aircraft

4) In lieu of an aircraft carrier invest in a good SSK fleet.

I asked my relative who works for the Navy for his take was on what is going on with the big submarine push in the Asia-Pacific (South Koera, China, Vietnam, Indonesia and India). He said that the sinking of the South Korean corvette Cheonan reinforces the fact that the smart investment in future naval warfare is to be under the water and shoot the missile, and not above the water and take the missile hits. Also that a well tried SSk fleet is see as a “force equalizer” against a large surface fleet. Chile is using this to counter the Peruvian Surface fleet.

A good SSK fleet in one form or another is the capital ship of the future for smaller Navies. It can deny use of sea transportation, defeat a surface naval force, and with cruise. And best of all it is stealthy and hard to track. Subs are also cheaper and less manpower intensive. Granted with SSK’s you're not going to project power very far onshore, but you can prevent, or at least make the enemy pay, if he wants to push into your coastal waters.

With that said what do you think of perhaps an inexpensively acquired US Tarawa Class LHA converted to a small carrier. What type of aircraft could you utilize from that deck. It would have to be and A-4.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

There are two options available with that budget, STOVL and STOBAR. A catapult will be too expensive unless there's a major war of great naval powers. Brazil has the money for catapults and even they lay low.
Second hand Tarawa class LHA will do nicely with spare parts and low budget. It's a STOVL design. Argentina can do some modifications for STOBAR, but until ELMAG gets widespread they will likely not have any catapult. China-Brazil have a strong connection in the naval aviation and nuclear submarine development, making it likely that Argentine can partner and reap some generous ELMAG benefits in 10-20 years.
For STOVL there's a very limited range of specialized aircrafts available. Harrier-family, Yak-141 and F-35, altogether rather bombers than fighters, even the Yak-141 officially intended as a fighter.
For STOBAR the template is the Kuznetsov. It allows for more capable fighters on a simple design. You will likely have to change a Tarawa class a bit for safer landings that are not vertical to reflect deck spaces on the Kuznetsov.
Kuznetsov.jpg300px-USS_Saipan_LHA-2_amphibious_assault_ship.jpg300px-Kusnzov2.jpg

It has for a very long time been predicted that only underwater assets will survive in naval warfare. Guess what, we have not one underwater carrier. Surface ships are platforms with surveillance gear, ground forces and support missiles for airborne assets or are relatively cheap ground forces transports. Some ships have more airborne assets, some less. The ones with less airborne assets try to protect the surface ships with more airborne assets. Ever since the Cuba Crisis it has been evident that submarines can't exercise sea control. Surface ships are for sea control, subsurface ships are for sea denial. Sea control does include influence over neighbouring land and protection of own convois. Getting the same mission gear on board a submarine is a massive cost multiplier and you would have to sacrifice stealth for doing the same surveillance in order to direct your forces to a place where they can do something useful. Submarines are very expensive because all space available on a submarine needs a lot more investments. For this reason forces are a mix of both kind.
It's possible that Argentina will acquire a small nuclear submarine for special forces deployment with some guided missiles from the Brazilian-Chinese cooperation that would much enhance their capabilities, but even such a system can't replace a carrier with an assorted surface fleet.

The role of an aircraft carrier is to secure control over a strip of sea. The advantage over land based systems is that this airbase can get quite close to the target. Any military investment can be destroyed. Looking at things from that perspective, we best have only infantry on trucks or boats - a kind of Taliban/Somali pirate militia - that will be vulnerable to attacks by more capable systems. China toyed with this idea of naval guerillas and got rid of it decades ago, with a remaining limited military role in minelaying and the traditional surveillance.

You can solve some sea control problems with land based aviation. Look at the old Soviet Union, Germany and Sweden for that approach. The Soviets realized that even their nuclear naval bastions need some fixed wing carrier to defend their coast close to friendly shores. I see Argentina as exercising a naval bastion game for transport protection and denial in order to win in a limited territorial conflict. Some carrier based fighter (not numerous heavy fighter-bombers like on the US, French and UK ships) capability integrated with land based naval aircrafts are part of that game after decades of Soviet denial of much surface asset significance. Most observers take their view to have been too futuristic, including the Russians of today. It's like the introduction of gunpowder, it was evidently the future, but you didn't win wars with much of the early systems, even if it was integrated into one of the best contemporary combined arms systems
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Btw. why isn't the Argentina looking for a Principe de Asturias or HTMS Chakri Naruebet ship that would be small, cheap and wider for non-STOVL fixed wing operations? You really don't need an expensive to maintain old hull with leaks. A small commando component can be added to any of these ships in LHA mode. The Tarawa class is in my opinion part of a system that is much more powerfull and has a lot more commando facilities than Argentina can fill. It's unlikely that in any of these regional conflicts Argentina would fight with any full blown tank division and even if so it would be cheaper to convert a civilian transport ferry with some military hardware. Costs for one small carrier and a militarized ferry should not exceed 500 million $, 10% of the annual defence budget.
 
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Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

First CZ-11 prototype helicopter delivered to Argentine Air Force and presented to public by Defense Minister Arturo Puricelli today, Argentine Industry Day. The Z-11 wil be licensed built in Argentina.

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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Below is an article from the Merco Sur newspaper regarding the status of the Mirage III and subtypes. This is a very strong article with serious accusation regarding the viability of the Mirage as an effective platform. Please excuse my translation.

Original Spanish

El inicio del Siglo XXI encontró a la FAA estudiando diversas ofertas para el reemplazo de los cazas Mirage, situación que se veía beneficiada por el levantamiento de las sanciones de Estados Unidos que le impedían la compra de material bélico de ese origen a raíz del conflicto del Atlántico Sur. Además, Argentina recibió el estatus de “Mayor non-NATO Ally” o “Aliado extra-OTAN” de USA, lo cual motivó que se pudiera iniciar la gestión para la adquisición de equipamiento militar con menores restricciones .

Las dos propuestas que más eco tuvieron dentro de la Fuerza correspondieron a un lote de veinticuatro F-16A/B Block.15 excedentes de la USAF y modernizados considerablemente, mientras que el otro correspondía a veinticuatro Mirage F-1EDA del Ejército del Aire español que habían sido excluidos del programa de modernización F-1M. Las propuestas no pudieron ser convenientemente atendidas debido a la debacle económica ocurrida en diciembre de 2001, lo cual supuso la imposibilidad de adquirir cualquier tipo de equipamiento militar.

Desde entonces la situación de los Mirage IIIEA se transformó, cuando menos, en desesperante, con un mantenimiento cada vez más costoso y una operatividad cada vez más reducida.

Durante los ejercicios combinados “Águila/Southern Falcon” con los F-16C de la Air National Guard (ANG) norteamericana, realizados a fines de los 90’s, se había demostrado que la tasa de eficacia del Mirage IIIEA, y sus derivados en servicio, contra cazas modernos, era escasa y que, en todo caso, se debía contar con la superioridad numérica, tripulaciones experimentadas y tácticas adecuadas para lograr alguna victoria, corriéndose el riesgo de perder uno o más aviones para obtener el derribo de un F-16.

El armamento, consistente exclusivamente en los misiles “Magic”, se encuentra totalmente obsoleto y su operatividad real es dudosa. El hecho de ser uno de los dos únicos operadores del Mirage III a nivel mundial, el otro es Pakistán, sumado a la antigüedad del modelo, motiva que la obtención de repuestos e insumos sean de difícil y costosa obtención, encareciendo la operatividad, aún más debido a los altos costos que presentan. Es así que se llega a evaluar la posibilidad de adquirir algunas células Mirage IIIEBR, recientemente dados de baja por la Força Aerea Brasileira, con el solo fin de ser canibalizadas para obtener repuestos y componentes.

Aún con todas estas limitaciones y en un ámbito regional que comenzaba a inundarse de nuevas tecnologías en el campo de la aviación de combate, la FAA proyecta una modernización de los Mirage IIIEA utilizando sistemas comunes a los presentes en los A-4AR “Fightinhawk”. Este proyecto, que contemplaba la instalación del radar APG-66(v)2 y otros sistemas, tampoco prospera. Dentro del marco de este proyecto, y dada la ya mencionada obsolescencia de los misiles “Magic”, se decide evaluar el empleo de los más modernos y eficientes AIM-9M “Sidewinder” empleados por los A-4AR. De esta manera, la FAA modifica un ejemplar, matrícula I-017, con el cableado necesario para homologar la operación con este misil, a la vez que se incluía un nuevo equipo VHF

En los años 90’s, cuando el mayor conocimiento de los aviones y la necesidad de aplicar las experiencias desprendidas de su empleo operativo en combate real no fueron transformadas en una modernización, muy necesaria, comenzaron a atentar contra su validez como Sistema de Armas. Ya en el Siglo XXI, el Mirage IIIEA queda absolutamente obsoleto en cuanto a equipamiento y armamento, con unas prestaciones limitadas y costos operativos que lo convirtieron en un auténtico lastre para la Fuerza Aérea.

La falta de visión de los mandos de la Fuerza, los continuos avatares económicos de nuestro país, un Poder Político (de cualquier partido) negligente con las necesidades de la Defensa, lo condenaron a una obsolescencia prematura.

La permanente evolución del campo de batalla moderno exige una actualización constante, tanto en doctrinas como en la introducción de tecnologías, tan necesarias para poder sobrevivir en ese entorno cambiante. Sin lugar a dudas esa fue lo que experimentó la Fuerza Aérea Argentina durante el conflicto del Atlántico Sur, además de poder observar las experiencias ajenas que continuamente iban sucediendo en todo el Planeta.
Sin embargo, durante 36 años de servicio, el modelo que debía ser el principal custodio de la soberanía de los cielos argentinos, apenas recibió modificaciones menores que no impactaron, de forma alguna, en su eficiencia como Sistema de Armas y, mucho menos, que solucionara algunas de las carencias que sufrieron sus pilotos en combate real.

Actualmente, y aún dentro del entorno regional, las tasas de efectividad y supervivencia son equivalentes a cero. La ausencia de sistemas de autoprotección, incluyendo un sencillo sistema RWR y sus señuelos asociados, el equipamiento electrónico propio de principios de los años 70’s y la falta de armamento moderno hacen que la operación del Mirage IIIEA sea prácticamente simbólica. Sumado a esto, la ya mencionada dificultad y alto costo en la obtención de repuestos, agravada por la antigüedad del material, encarece cada vez más su operación.
Ante estos hechos, y el desvío de recursos que genera ante las necesidades acuciantes del resto de las unidades de la Fuerza, hacen altamente cuestionable el continuar la operación del Mirage IIIEA, aún cuando la FAA no ha definido claramente su sustituto

Es tiempo de darle descanso al cazador.



English Translation

The beginning of the 21st century found the FAA studying various options for replacement of the Mirage III fighters, a situation that was benefited by the lifting of the sanctions by the United States. These sanctions were as a result of the conflict with England, in the South Atlantic, and prevented the purchase of military equipment. Additionally, Argentina received the status of "Major non-NATO Ally", which opened the door for the acquisition of military equipment with only minor restrictions.

The two proposals that had echoed within the Air Force were a batch of twenty-four F-16A/B surplus USAF Block.15 to be considerably upgraded in the US, while the other was up to twenty-four Mirage F-1EDA of the Spanish air force, which had been excluded from the F - 1 M modernization program. The proposals could not come to fruition due to the economic crisis that occurred in December 2001, which imposed the impossibility of purchasing any type of military equipment.

Since the situation of the Mirage IIIEA was transforming, to a point of desperation, with increasingly costly maintenance and a reduction of operation availability.

During joint exercises, at the end of the 1990s, "Eagle/Southern Falcon" with the F-16 C, of the American Air National Guard (ANG), had demonstrated the efficacy rate of Mirage IIIEA and its effectiveness in service against modern fighters, was sparse. In every case, it was discovered that numerical superiority, even with experienced pilots and tactics failed to achieve any significant victory, and resulted in the loss of one or more aircraft for the loss of an F-16.

Weaponry utilized consisted entirely "Magic" missiles, which were obsolete and its actual effectiveness questionable (eluding to ECM environment). Given that being one of the only two operators of Mirage III at a global level, the other is Pakistan, coupled with the age of the aircraft, difficulty and expense in obtaining spare parts add expense and degrades, operability. The Mirage IIIBR that were decommissioned from the Brazilian Air Force have been used for the sole purpose of being cannibalized for spare parts and components.

Even with all of these limitations and inflow to Latin America of new technologies in the field of combat aviation, the FAA began planning a modernization of the Mirage IIIEA using systems common to the A-4AR "Fighting Skyhawk". This project, which provided for the installation of the APG-66 radar (v) 2 and other systems, never came to fruition. The framework of the project took into account the aforementioned obsolescence of "Magic" missiles, and considered the use of the modern and efficient AIM - 9 M "Sidewinder" employed by the A-4AR. In this way, there would be a commonality of equipment. The FAA modified an airframe, registration I-017, with the wiring necessary to homologate the radar/missile system operation, which at the time included new VHF equipment.

In the 90's, with greater knowledge of the aircraft and the need to apply lessons from their operation in actual combat were not incorporated into much-needed modernization, it began call into question its validity as a weapons system. Already in the 21st century, the Mirage IIIEA is obsolete in performance and armament, and with its high operating costs has turned it into a real burden for the Air Force.

The lack of vision of commanders of the Air Force, the continuous economic difficulties of our country, political power (from any party) negligent with the needs of the defense has condemned it to premature obsolescence.

The permanent evolution of the modern battlefield requires constant updating, both doctrines and the introduction of technologies, so necessary in order to survive in this changing environment. Without a doubt that was what the Argentina air force experienced during the conflict in the South Atlantic, as well as to observe outside experiences that were continuously happening across the globe.

However, during 36 years of service, the model that should be the main guardian of sovereignty of Argentine skies received only minor modifications that had no real effect, in any way, in its efficiency as a weapons system and, even less in solving some of the gaps which pilots suffered in actual combat.

Currently, and even in the regional environment, the effectiveness and survival rates are equivalent to zero. The absence of self-protection systems, including a simple RWR system and its associated , electronic equipment of the early 70's and the lack of modern weapons make the operation of Mirage IIIEA practically symbolic. Added to this, the aforementioned difficulty and high cost in obtaining spare parts, compounded by the age of the airframe, makes its operation more difficult.

Given these facts, and the diversion of resources pressingly needs for the rest of the Air Force units, make the continual operation of the Mirage IIIEA (Neshers, etc..) highly questionable, even when the FAA has not clearly defined its substitute.

It is time to retire this old interceptor.



Please note that the article omitted the modernization of the Mirage V and Neshers in the mid-1990s. This was done with the help from the Israelis, which brought the aircraft up to Kfir C2 standards. The C2 was already obsolete by the Mid 1980s as the C7 was already in operation and being replaced by F-16.

When these Mirage III (and subtypes) retire, Argentine will effectively have no fast fighter aircraft, and basically operate only subsonic strike aircraft. Also 20 of the remaining 34 A-4AR are in storage to avoid additional operational costs. So in essence 14 A-4AR Skyhawk’s protect the entire country.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

"So in essence 14 A-4AR Skyhawk’s protect the entire country."

Is that it...are you sure? That's not enough for a country of Argentina's size. Are they planning to purchase something new in the future?
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

That is correct. I could count the 24+/- Mirage IIIEA, Nesher and Mirage V, which have no significant military value. With the exception of interdiction of drug trafficers/sumuggler etc…
The 14 A-4AR (plus 20 in storage), and around 36 Pucara COIN aircraft (another 20+ in storage).
There are also approximately 9 to 10 operational Super Etendards of the Naval aviation
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt, I wanted to ask you a question regarding the possible aircraft you motioned. I am in agreement that aircraft as use in Canada, Russia and the Scandinavian nations are more suited for operation in Argentina. Specifically in Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego.
I have always favored the F-18 as a good replacement aircraft (closer ties to the US and robust aircraft). However, since well are on a site called Sino Defense I would like to discuses the option presented by a forum member. Specifically the L-15. I would see the L-15 and as a supplement to the SU-27/33. Here are my questions:

1) In the agreement that China has to produce the S-27/J-11 aren’t they prohibited to domestic use only, no foreign sales?

2) You mentioned that the L-15 would make a good candidate for a light carrier based aircraft (although it is lite). However you did comment regarding the quality of the power plant and that a Russian alternative could be had. Could please elaborate on that.

3) What is your opinion of the lightweight fight developed by Sukhio, known as the S-54? I would be a good supplement to the Su-27

4) Since we’re taking about used aircraft that would not break the bank (and we need to discuss Chinese aircraft) how about used (first production version) of the J-10 that probable don’t have more than 2.000 hours on the airframes.

5) And finally (nothing to do with aircraft) submarines. Argentina has two TR-1700 submarines that are 70% and 40% complete. The government has set monies aside to complete these vessels (There is still no activity at that dry-dock). What is your opinion of the Amur class vessel that the Russian Federation has developed, Or the Type 039A/B the Yuan?

Thank again for your insight.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Who know's maybe Argentina could be the first to purchase the Russians SU-35 fighter planes.
 
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