Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Frontal stealth, heavy weight with lots of fuel consumption and drag as well as much reduced pressure during maneuvers due to inlet design. You might re-read the demands on logistics and wvr capability. Logistics are too high and wvr too low. Otherwise this stealthy-F-18 lookalike is good if it can be bought second hand (normal Argentine policy without much choices since Chile has the F-16 and Argentina wants a carrier.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Another possibility would be to modify the J-31 design for simplicity of operations and logistical support, and bring in Brazil and Venezuela to boost production numbers.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Kurt, hope you had a go time at the Oktoberfest. I image large quantities of beer were consumed as part of the festivities. We have a very authentic , which has a large German population.
I was again read and re-reading your replies from last month and I wanted to touch upon the raptor aircraft. I again with you that the Su-47, or even a Su-35 type you be grand. However realistically given Argentines prior track record of purchasing older equipment, how would you see about 2 squadrons (36 single seater, plus 4 or so OCU) of MiG-29’s (used) updated with Israeli avionics? Similar to the Israeli/Romanian Sniper project. These aircraft could fit the dogfighter/BVR component of the air force. They would work in conjunction with AWCA and CAP. If not the MiG-29s then a comparable number of used (first production runs) of the J-10.

As a secondary aircraft I have been contemplating is a rough field strike aircraft similar in design to the J-22 Orao. The advantages would be that it is easy to construct (the Romanians built them in tractor factories) inexpensive to build, and would be well suited to the low-density conflict. The aircraft carries around 2, 500kg of external fuel and munitions and could be utilized as a poor mans Jaguar.
All this hypothetical is of course based on the use of UAVs to data link and coordinate the operations

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

siegecrossbow said:

How about this???

Click to expand...

Wonderful aircraft, but unaffordable for Argentina.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Miragedriver said:

Wonderful aircraft, but unaffordable for Argentina.

Click to expand...

Yes it's a wonderful fighter plane, but Argentina still needs something like it to improve her Air Forces.

Re: New interceptors for the Argentine Air Force?

Equation said:

Yes it's a wonderful fighter plane, but Argentina still needs something like it to improve her Air Forces.

Click to expand...

Agreed. An aircraft like that is necessary to be able to counter 21st century threats and to combat against F-16’s. However given the modus operandi of the Argentine military, then used equipment is the probable route. Used Mig-29, Su-27 or J-10 with Israeli avionics will probably be the likely scenario.
However, since the final decision lays with the politician and not the military we could all be surprised! Like the recent decision to construct 40 IA-63 trainers to act as a stop gap to cover the loss of the 30+ Mirage III/Nesher/Mirage V. Who knows, we may see the purchase of surplus Kfir from Israel.

New life to older aircraft

I would like to propose a question to all the arm chair 3rd world air force commanders. With the cost of modern combat aircraft being completely unaffordable for most 3rd world and even developing nations and the glut of surplus aircraft in the deserts of the USA and in “somewhat” storage in Ukraine and Russia. Why haven’t we seen more nations take advantage of these aircraft for there own armed forces? An example such as Sri Lanka, which purchased several Mig-27 to perform strike missions during the civil war. There aircraft where refurbished with an estimated life span of 8-years +/-. At a cost of around $US4 million that’s not a bad deal! Even the Chinese could refurbish their J-7’s for replacement aircraft to mig-21 users.

Lets pick an aircraft for the sake of conversation (it could be anyone, other forum member please suggest your favorite), but I’ll start with the Mig-23/27. For all the 3rd generation fighters, MiG-23/27 is probably the one that is closest in terms of performance to 4th Gen. The question is, with adequate modifications, could we make it stand it ground and have a fighting chance with a fourth generation fighter? Some possible modifications could be: 1. Al-31F engine to replace R27 or R31 engine. 2. remove the variable geometry wing (heavy and maneuvering and g limiting) and replace with a Jaguar type wing. 3. raised seat and new canopy for better pilot visibility. 4. new avionics. 5. modern weapons system and survivability suite. With the cheapness of MiG-23 frame, it is quite possible that someone can build a good strike fighter or a decent multi-purpose fighter?

Am I being delusional as to the investment in an old airframe or is there some merit? Imagine a Q-6 without variable geometry wing. However, one has to think why the Chinese never continued the Q-6 without the swing-wing concept.

Re: New life to older aircraft

I will not say delusional sir, that would be rude

However, it is actually the cost prevents such things from happening, or in the case above, the Mig23/27 scenario
these modifications you mentioned, amounts to huge research, just like designing a new aircraft, and thats where the problem lies, testing and prototyping the whole damn thing from start to finish is expensive.

And there is always political mutuality between the countries involved, for example J7 - Srilanka - China, F16 - Indonesia - US.
These cheap deals did not just happen because they feel good at each other and decide to throw in some fighters to the party. Unless your country is on their radar and they need something beneficial from you, such offers are hard to come by.

Getting a cheap fighter procurement solution is not easy for cash strapped air force these days, its either swallow the budget cost and brave the politic storm, or none at all because you don't have any funds or political capital.

Another way to build up AF capabilities is to start from trainers, so you retain the training process and pilot skills, without having to invest in any certain fighter aircraft platform. Trainers are far cheaper to operate compared to full fledged fighters.

If you are looking for real cheap solutions, J-7 and JF-17 are the only real alternatives, but then you have to commit to Chinese parts and logistics.

Re: New life to older aircraft

Cash strapped third world nations buying trainers to project air power is a excellent idea. One plane that comes to mind is the advanced jet trainer the BAE Hawk. They have been around for 35+ yrs so there should be a few older variants on the market. The fact that they can carry armanents would be an added advantage. I also believe they are capable for carrying out anti ship operations.

Re: New life to older aircraft

To an extent this already happens

The Thai Airforce picked up ex-German AlphaJets, The Filipinos are looking at used Italian AMXs.

Basically if you are cash strapped and friends with the Chinese then you can grab J7s otherwise you're looking at low mileage euro kit. Most ex-Soviet and US stuff are going to either have too little airframe life left or are maintenance nightmares for dinky airforces with no cash!