Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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Jura The idiot
General
Re: US military news thread
Could you please tell me what you think are the (dis)advantages of the Independence with respect to the Freedom LCS? I thought this was a FAQ so I used google a moment ago, but didn't find "a short answer" (I gave up after some combination of keywords had sent me to the description of these ships on: jeffhead.com
and I decided to ask here directly). But if there's no "short answer" to this, just tell me
Could you please tell me what you think are the (dis)advantages of the Independence with respect to the Freedom LCS? I thought this was a FAQ so I used google a moment ago, but didn't find "a short answer" (I gave up after some combination of keywords had sent me to the description of these ships on: jeffhead.com
and I decided to ask here directly). But if there's no "short answer" to this, just tell me 
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Re: US military news thread
@Jeff when I saw the pic for a millionth of a second I thought OMG what happened to that ship's forward half. Then I realized what I was looking at.
@ Jura, I think both ships have a definitive future, however the Independence Trimiran hull gives it a shallower draft, and larger flat deck for helicopters and other equipment better suited to brown water.
as to freedom.
its not the stock freedom class I am thinking about its a stretched up gunned version built more for blue water missions.
@Jeff when I saw the pic for a millionth of a second I thought OMG what happened to that ship's forward half. Then I realized what I was looking at.
@ Jura, I think both ships have a definitive future, however the Independence Trimiran hull gives it a shallower draft, and larger flat deck for helicopters and other equipment better suited to brown water.
as to freedom.
its not the stock freedom class I am thinking about its a stretched up gunned version built more for blue water missions.
Jura, in response to your question about the Independence versus the Freedom class and their positives and negatives:
The Freedom class is a much more traditional hull form. Its draft is actually about a foot less than the draft of the Independence class (13 ft vs 14 ft) but both of them are shallow draft vessels.
The Freedom class has a good sized flight deck (1.5 times as large as the Arliegh Burke) at 5,200 sq. ft. but still significantly smaller than the Independence class which has a 11,500 sq. ft. flight deck. That large flight deck on the Indepndence class means all sorts of good possibilities for mine hunting, ASW duties, and transport duties over the Freedom class...but both can carry two Seahwks so from an ASW stanbpoint, the Freedom can still do a very good job.
The Freedom class was desinged to carry one mission module and also a decent supply of troops or other equipment if necessary. The Independiece class has an even much larger mission bay of 15,000 sq. ft. and can carry two complete mission modules, or a four side by side lanes of Stryker vehicles and their troops. Both have RO/RO capabilities for the equipment that they can carry.
The Freedom class is faster, 47 knots versus 44 knots for the Independence class. I believe the Freedom class could be a stronger candidate formutli-mission firgate type capabilities, though I believe both could be configured to carry enough weapons to accomplish the multi-role mission if necessary.
Anyhow, those are some of the differences. I believe both are good platforms, and both could be made to be good multi-mission vessels for the littporals. In fact I think they really need to be and fill up a lot of the "module" space with the equipment necessary to accomplish this.
BTW, I am moving all of the LCS discussiont hat has been going on on the US Military News thread to this LCS thread.
The Freedom class is a much more traditional hull form. Its draft is actually about a foot less than the draft of the Independence class (13 ft vs 14 ft) but both of them are shallow draft vessels.
The Freedom class has a good sized flight deck (1.5 times as large as the Arliegh Burke) at 5,200 sq. ft. but still significantly smaller than the Independence class which has a 11,500 sq. ft. flight deck. That large flight deck on the Indepndence class means all sorts of good possibilities for mine hunting, ASW duties, and transport duties over the Freedom class...but both can carry two Seahwks so from an ASW stanbpoint, the Freedom can still do a very good job.
The Freedom class was desinged to carry one mission module and also a decent supply of troops or other equipment if necessary. The Independiece class has an even much larger mission bay of 15,000 sq. ft. and can carry two complete mission modules, or a four side by side lanes of Stryker vehicles and their troops. Both have RO/RO capabilities for the equipment that they can carry.
The Freedom class is faster, 47 knots versus 44 knots for the Independence class. I believe the Freedom class could be a stronger candidate formutli-mission firgate type capabilities, though I believe both could be configured to carry enough weapons to accomplish the multi-role mission if necessary.
Anyhow, those are some of the differences. I believe both are good platforms, and both could be made to be good multi-mission vessels for the littporals. In fact I think they really need to be and fill up a lot of the "module" space with the equipment necessary to accomplish this.
BTW, I am moving all of the LCS discussiont hat has been going on on the US Military News thread to this LCS thread.
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Thanks for the correction on the draught of Indy vs Freedom Jeff.
I am wondering what do you think of the proposed freedom variants, could a variety of which stretched and armed serve as a option for use in the multi role frigate mission for the USN as I surmise? And if so how would such in your view be armed and equipped.
I am wondering what do you think of the proposed freedom variants, could a variety of which stretched and armed serve as a option for use in the multi role frigate mission for the USN as I surmise? And if so how would such in your view be armed and equipped.
My concern is going to be the cost.
Heck, the LCS Freedom class is already over f $650 million. A completely uparmed one is probably going to push it towards a billion dollars. Just too expensive IMHO. They want an AEGIS lite sensor suite, and that will also drive up the cost.
But, then again, the existing Legend Class cutters are costing over $600 million too, so uparmning those is going to be expensive.
Both of those vessels are 4,500 tons as they sit, and with the additional equipment thay are going to push 5,000 tons.
We just need to be able to build a little smaller, military spec frigate for no more than $400-500 million. IMHO, it needs to have the following:
01 x 76mm main dp gun
16 x MK-41 VLS carrying
- 08 x LRASM
- 32 x ESSM
01 x RAM launcher with 21 missiles
01 x Phalanx CIWS
02 x Mk-38 mod 2 25mm guns
01 x Pad and hangeer for two MH-60R ASW helos
Make it 3,500-4,000 ton displacment full load. Give it decent radar (not APAR), sonar, and communications suite including datra link and cooperative engagement capabilites so a Burke or Tico can use it in task force defense.
That's what I think. Then build 24 pof them to go along with the 32 LCS they still plan. I'd rather see 24 LCS and 32 of these frigates myself.
Guys.. about 11 or 12 years ago my son who at that time was on active duty with the USN told me that the USN had no intention of building another class of FFGs. The USN plan at that time was to build more and i"mproved" Arliegh Burkes.
Will the USN ever gain another class of FFGs? I don't think it is anyone in a position of authority plans at this time.
Will the USN ever gain another class of FFGs? I don't think it is anyone in a position of authority plans at this time.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
hmmm. Everything seems to indicate that LCS is the navy's new frigates. That's why I asked about the possibility of a variant of the Freedom, the same question could be asked about independence as well. Because in my view the 32 LCS or maybe just maybe BlockII or BlockIII versions of these hulls would be about as close to a Perry Class replacement as the USN is going to get. Armament is close, size is appropriate, although pricy its adding capacity in terms of amphibious roles.
Sounds like the USN could use their own 054A or formidable class.
Personally I think one of the USNs biggest mistakes in the last two decades was not developing a true successor to the oliver hazard perry class. Such a ship would have had amazing export potential as well, and would probably have been conventional but powerful enough to actually be a frigate — compared to the LCS, whose displacement should warrant that title, but whose displacement barely approaches that of a corvette!
Jura The idiot
General
Thanks, Jeff, also for your explanations why both classes will be built http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/littoral-combat-ships-lcs-21-3993.html#post265341 but ... I still don't get it :-( "why there are two winners" but I'll not gnaw at it