Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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supersnoop

Major
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For example, large exercises in Japan including multiple carriers, then transfer 100,000 troops from the exercise plus the forces in Japan Korea and the Philippines to Taiwan.

Maybe the most likely scenario for independence in Taiwan: a colour revolution against the next KMT president that abolishes the ROC. Both the US and China will see it coming and then it will be a race for China to end the rebellion before the US arrives.

How do you envisage a war over Taiwan starting? A Chinese surprise blockade would be quite difficult politically

I don’t think the idea that surprise independence declaration is infeasible. In fact, I think you are right that it is a top possibility.

However, the amount of ships/planes/resources to move 100,000 troops and supplies, and multiple carriers cannot reasonably be accomplished with any amount of surprise.

Most scenarios are talking about a two-week window for Taiwan defense to hold up, before a reasonable intervention force can be put together. As you mention yourself, if Taipei were to fall within this window, there isn’t any help coming.
 

tphuang

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US and Japan are preparing for a war against China in the near future. Massive hikes in military spending and specific weapons procurement targeting China.

It is time for China to prepare for the worse case scenario right now.
Let's chill a little bit. Japan is heading to a major recession with twin deficits. I have serious doubts that they will actually be able to carry out this plan to raise defense spending to 2% of GDP. As we've seen with Germany and Ukraine, it's one thing to make a pledge about increased military spending and quite another thing to carry it out.

And frankly, even if Japan increase budget to $100 billion a year, that's peanuts compared to how much US military increases a year. And as long as Japan procures and maintains expensive US weapons, there is just not a huge bang for the buck. And as we've seen, there are limits in America's industrial might that limits output of major weapon systems.

Which brings us back to China. It is going through the biggest military buildup in the recent history. And the war in Ukraine have shown that you need to store up a lot of weapons for a high intensity conflict. That's one of the major summaries that Yankeesama heard when he listened in the PLA's lessons from Ukraine conflict. You need to stock up a lot of weapons. So, expect them to really build up their hypersonic weapons, subsonic missiles and PGMs. DF-17s should go well over 1000 if they managed to reduce its cost to $2 million a pop. They need to build up enough DF-26s and DF-27s to be able to take out Guam, Darwin and possibly Alaska in the beginning stages of a conflict. So, I'd expect them to do an even more accelerated buildup regardless of whether that gets announced in the military budget. I think China's military budget does not matter as much as what we see the buildup.

The other thing I want to stress is that I finally got a small understanding of the calculus of the neocons. In their view, America cannot loose a major conflict. Even something like Ukraine where they really shouldn't have any skin in the game, they are behaving like they have a lot of skin in the game. They are emptying out large quantity of their weapon storage and risking a nuclear war for Ukraine of all places. I think there is always fear among neocons that as soon as they lose any kind of war or proxy war they support, they will lose control over their allies. Either the allies don't think America can protect them and jump ship or allies just stop following America's direction. I was listening to the Duran today and the question got asked of what will happen to the Baltic states and their place in NATO if Russia wins thoroughly in Ukraine. I'm not sure the answer to that. However, I have heard what will happen in Asia if America does not defend Taiwan. As such, I think China has to plan for not only US participation but also a very sustained and determined long war.

More than anything, that means they need to just keep adding a lot of quantities and be able to protect their military industrial complex and operating bases. And they will also need to find ways to disrupt American bases that are further away and military industrial complex. I'm sure cyber warfare, financial warfare, space warfare, energy warfare and other non-conventional types of warfare are all things that they need to prepare for.
 

Biscuits

Major
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China is deploying things really quickly as well. With the new J-20s, assuming they get a2a drones networked, in a couple of years, China will have a generational advantage in the air against its enemies.

Besides that, we're getting top of the line SSNs, a contemporary to the B-21, 2nd generation hypersonic missiles and more. And that's just the currently visible stuff.

I actually wonder, it is possible that China had used loopholes to reduce on paper spending and in practice, they are on par with NATO spending levels at the minimum. This would be the only explanation on how so many projects can be run concurrently and still be built in large amounts.

A way which China could have done is to outsource all the soldier salary and retirement costs (which are a huge part of upkeep) to the communist party's employment costs rather than the military budget, since PLA are armed wing of the communist movement. They may also have outsourced several types of arms development to the PAP, such as drones, personal equipment etc.
 

vincent

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Moderator - World Affairs
Most scenarios are talking about a two-week window for Taiwan defense to hold up, before a reasonable intervention force can be put together. As you mention yourself, if Taipei were to fall within this window, there isn’t any help coming.
That's a very dangerous assumption. What if PLAGF stuck in MOUT in Taipei? What if some ROC generals continue to lead in other places to resist? What if American "tourists" or Chinese-Americans gather the remains of the ROC forces and continue to resist in other areas and wait for the American intervention fleet? MOUT will continue regardless of Taipei's status.

Look, the restart of the Chinese civil war will be the most important seminal event for China since the Japanese invasion. There is almost zero margin for errors. Chinese leadership must plan for the worst in every scenario. The possibility of Hegemon and its vassals' intervention and ROC forces continuous resistance should be assumed to be 100% and PLA should plan accordingly.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
That's a very dangerous assumption. What if PLAGF stuck in MOUT in Taipei? What if some ROC generals continue to lead in other places to resist? What if American "tourists" or Chinese-Americans gather the remains of the ROC forces and continue to resist in other areas and wait for the American intervention fleet? MOUT will continue regardless of Taipei's status.

Look, the restart of the Chinese civil war will be the most important seminal event for China since the Japanese invasion. There is almost zero margin for errors. Chinese leadership must plan for the worst in every scenario. The possibility of Hegemon and its vassals' intervention and ROC forces continuous resistance should be assumed to be 100% and PLA should plan accordingly.
My own expectation would be closer to a modern day version of the Pacific War, but in the reverse direction.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Nah, i expect the battle will be missile-based. Both sides will deploy tons of sensory platforms, both manned and unmanned, and shoot at each other with lots and lots of missiles
That's what I meant to cover in my statement, strategically it would look like a reverse Pacific War, but operationally and tactically executed with increasingly automated weapon systems and platforms.
 

AndrewS

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Registered Member
And frankly, even if Japan increase budget to $100 billion a year, that's peanuts compared to how much US military increases a year. And as long as Japan procures and maintains expensive US weapons, there is just not a huge bang for the buck. And as we've seen, there are limits in America's industrial might that limits output of major weapon systems.

The situation is actually worse as Japan also buys domestic Japanese weapons which are frequently even more expensive than US equivalents.


Which brings us back to China. It is going through the biggest military buildup in the recent history. And the war in Ukraine have shown that you need to store up a lot of weapons for a high intensity conflict. That's one of the major summaries that Yankeesama heard when he listened in the PLA's lessons from Ukraine conflict. You need to stock up a lot of weapons. So, expect them to really build up their hypersonic weapons, subsonic missiles and PGMs. DF-17s should go well over 1000 if they managed to reduce its cost to $2 million a pop.

I'd say $2 million for a DF-17 is pretty much confirmed. It's the figure from the Chinese podcasts and the USAF have implicitly confirmed this figure with their conference presentation which referenced Chinese hypersonic weapons costs.

So I reckon the DF-17 requirement is a minimum of 1000, as it's the best option to conduct a decisive missile strike against airbases and other key targets in Japan. That opens up Japan to follow on airstrikes etc. In other words, Japan becomes a larger version of Taiwan, whose seaports and airports would be under attack and which can be subject to indefinite blockade.

Note that this DF-17 cost is comparable to the JASSM which the US recently authorised procurement of 3000. So I could easily see the PLARF getting over 2000 for Japan and other contingencies.

The other thing I want to stress is that I finally got a small understanding of the calculus of the neocons. In their view, America cannot loose a major conflict.

Yes.

From a US neocon perspective, if the US wishes to retain its pre-eminent position in the world and exorbitant privilege, it can't show weakness as both challengers and allies will smell that weakness. That will accelerate the tear down or make irrelevant the structures that the US has built up where it is on top.

But the US is suffering a classic case of imperial overstretch now, which is only going to get worse in the coming years.

If Japan comes to the conclusion that a war with China results in Japan suffering a crippling blockade, and that the US would lose a war over Taiwan anyway, then it means the US cannot provide either economic or military security.

So Japan's alliance with the US would actually be actually useless. A rationale Japan should abandon the US alliance and become neutral or move towards China.

That would mean the end of the US system in East Asia overall and a return to the historical norm where China was predominant in the Western Pacific.

If both the US and Japan acknowledge they won't intervene in a Taiwan scenario, then Taiwan's best option is a negotiated settlement that avoids a war in the first place.

And from China's perspective, there's no rush to launch a war as the balances will continue shifting towards China in decades ahead
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
If both the US and Japan acknowledge they won't intervene in a Taiwan scenario
So Japan's alliance with the US would actually be actually useless. A rationale Japan should abandon the US alliance and become neutral or move towards China.

That would mean the end of the US system in East Asia overall and a return to the historical norm where China was predominant in the Western Pacific.
That's exactly why the US cannot abandon Taiwan. Its about having the option to fight for Taiwan, it must fight in order to keep its hegemony
 
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