Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

Status
Not open for further replies.

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
One should always plan for the worst (Russians learned that painful lesson recently).

Answer this question: if ROC ground forces resist fiercely and PLA has to fight buildings after buildings, blocks after blocks like the Russian did in Mariupol, considering the Taiwan Island is highly highly urbanized, fighting will drag on for months. This gives American and its vassals plenty of time to mobilize their forces while providing ISR support to the ROC forces to resist PLA. When their grand fleet do reach the West Pac theatre, PLAAF and PLAN will have to fight their forces while have to divert their forces to provide support and supply to the PLAGF. The supply lines will be heavily attack and PLAAF and PLAN have to use a lot of their forces to defend them instead of attacking the intervention forces.

Is this scenario ideal?

On the other hand with a pure naval and aerial blockade, the PLAAF and PLAGF can bomb the shit out of ROC forces for as long as it takes. If the American and its vassals’ forces do intervene, the PLAAF and PLAN can switch from a blockade mode into a mobile force mode. They can maneuver without worry about defending supply lines and use much more of their forces to attack the intervention forces. At the mean time, the people on the Taiwan Island can think about surrendering

Why? Is there any hurry? If Taiwan declares independence tomorrow does it mean that China is obliged to declare war on it the same day lol



So what. Lets say I am feeling generous today and say that the US manages to sneak in a brigade in Taiwan. So what, big deal

Anything else meaningful, requiring air or naval assets would be known by Chinese intelligence months before due to the inherent preparations needed to be made to transfer large forces across the globe

The moment China sniffs any big movement, it throws an ultimatum: Go back or we start a first strike at your Asia-Pacific assets while your reinforcements are still at your ports in the US. Then you can wait a month or so to marshal your forces while we are dunking you on the Asia Pacific theater lol


Why invasion though? How about a blockade, for how long can Taiwan last with 0 imports. I would say 1-2 weeks max before they become cavemen
My assumption is that American intervention has a high probability, let's say 70% if China waits for months after a declaration of independence. If there's a blockade, the chance of intervention is maybe 20% and if PLA forces are on the island fighting house to house the probability drops again to maybe 10%. Of course if Taipei falls, the chance of intervention is 0%. I would at least try to avoid an American attack, if possible.

Sure, if there are Chinese soldiers on Taiwan when a Pacific war starts, they'll be on their own. I'd rather bet thousands of lives on the chance of a limited war than accept the certainty of tens of thousands of deaths and economic devastation in a major war.

What kind of “realistic” scenarios involve meaningful numbers of US combat assets being closer to Taiwan than China is?
For example, large exercises in Japan including multiple carriers, then transfer 100,000 troops from the exercise plus the forces in Japan Korea and the Philippines to Taiwan.

Maybe the most likely scenario for independence in Taiwan: a colour revolution against the next KMT president that abolishes the ROC. Both the US and China will see it coming and then it will be a race for China to end the rebellion before the US arrives.

How do you envisage a war over Taiwan starting? A Chinese surprise blockade would be quite difficult politically
 

infinity_wor;d

New Member
Registered Member
The biggest problem is, how much effort the US will make to defend Taiwan. If a lot, then a swift invasion may be more reasonable. But, if the US is running out of money or does not have enough strength to protect Taiwan(maybe due to air/missile strikes by PLA), a blockade sounds better.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think Patch has been pretty clear that the current force posture heavily favors PLA and the peak of PLA advantage will be around 2025.

I don't get how the peak of PLA advantage is just 2025. Yes, the US will be putting into service larger numbers and types of weapons systems after 2025. But even accounting for this, the observed Chinese buildup is still significantly faster and larger.

My mid-case model has the modern Chinese military weapons stockpile doubling by 2029. By 2035, it would be roughly triple that of today. And the US would struggle to break a Chinese blockade of Japan, never mind a Taiwan blockade.

An upper-case scenario in 2040 has the Chinese economy and military spending at twice the US level. In such a scenario, it would only be a matter of time before the Chinese Navy is twice the size, and be able to defeat the entire US Navy in a Pacific war.

Going back to the present day, the latest forecasts from the US banks is around 1% US growth for 2023. In comparison, China is forecast at around 5%. So China continues to grow much faster and widen the gap from a smaller US economy

For 095, we are making the assumption that it can be built in large numbers and will be similar in noise level to early Virginia class and can carry large number of UVLS. In that scenario, they should be relatively hard to detect in open ocean when operating alone and would be able to launch probably 1000 km long hypersonic missile and 2000 km long subsonic cruise missiles. That would allow them to again threaten Alaska and Pearl Harbour, but also any naval base in the west coast.

I would judge Virginia-level quieting as impossible to detect in the open ocean, given that this is already at or below ocean background noise. And note the Virginia can sustain this at a speed exceeding 20 knots.

So I think in order to deal with the upcoming challenges, they would probably have to build up their own access denial platforms that can deny access much further out than second island chain. I think they are going to have to get to a stage where they are pumping out 5 to 8 095s a year as well as 15 to 20 H-20s.

8 Type-095s per year feels too high. I'd go with an upper estimate of 6 per year.
After a 10 years, 8 per year would be already 80 SSNs. And after 20 years, there would be 160.

For comparison, the US currently only has 50 SSNs and is aiming for a fleet of 70 by 2050.

---

I'd go with an upper estimate of 12-15 H-20 per year as well, because there just aren't enough suitable targets. It literally is a handful of carriers and land bases at those sorts of ranges. 12 per year for 15 years is 180 in total, which should be more than enough.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
If there's a blockade, the chance of intervention is maybe 20% and if PLA forces are on the island fighting house to house the probability drops again to maybe 10%. Of course if Taipei falls, the chance of intervention is 0%. I would at least try to avoid an American attack, if possible.
The chance of American intervention increases, not decreases when PLA is stuck in MOUT. Look how much resources both sides in the Ukraine war have to throw in. The supply chain to the troops on the island is gonna be huge and offer the American and its vassals lots of juicy targets. I have already stated PLAAF and PLAN have to divert tons of assets just to protect the supply chain instead of attacking the intervention forces
Sure, if there are Chinese soldiers on Taiwan when a Pacific war starts, they'll be on their own. I'd rather bet thousands of lives on the chance of a limited war than accept the certainty of tens of thousands of deaths and economic devastation in a major war.
Major war is a certainty. Just because you don’t want one doesn’t mean the Hegemon doesn’t, especially if it think Chinese forces are in a vulnerable position
How do you envisage a war over Taiwan starting? A Chinese surprise blockade would be quite difficult politically
The PLA exercises conducted after the Pelosi visit only involved assets from the Easter Theatre Command, apparently threw together hastily in a couple of weeks. China literally can start the blockade by bomb all the ports and airports on the island which aren’t many next week if she wants to.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Major war is a certainty
That's the key question. If you're right, then yes, a blockade and maybe a preemptive strike on US forces makes sense.
Look how much resources both sides in the Ukraine war have to throw in
And look at what they haven't done. They didn't dare to intervene directly and they barely strike targets in Russia proper. If the Ukraine war teaches us anything, it's that the US thinks very carefully before committing to a conflict with a power who is a peer in the nuclear realm. Once China has 10,000 nukes, the probability of an armed intervention drops considerably. They will of course try to send supplies to the island, but not much will get there because of the difficult logistics compared to Ukraine. Thinking from a political point of view, it might even be better to give the enemy an opportunity to send supplies to Taiwan so they don't feel completely powerless and react unpredictably. Sending weapons to Taiwan won't make a difference, so it should be allowed.

I'm sure the Chinese and American leadership thinks similarly. A nuclear war should be avoided at all costs and getting into a war with the US is too risky. Taiwan isn't worth the risk to all of China in a nuclear exchange and escalation of a Pacific war into a nuclear war is a real possibility
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think Patch has been pretty clear that the current force posture heavily favors PLA and the peak of PLA advantage will be around 2025. So given that there are elections in 2024 in both Taiwan and America, it's probably a good thing that PLA would be ready for a conflict if things go really haywire. Or the very least, US military knows that a conflict will be disastrous and tell the politicians to back off. We've also discussed that the think tank times are normally several years behind the curve, so their influence over politicians is a huge disaster to world peace.

The question is what happens after 2025 that changes things. The most obvious ticket items that the deep state is look forward to are B-21, NGAD, hypersonic fires and more effective force structure in westpac. To me, hypersonic fire for us military will always be overly expensive and won't reach the same level of lethality as PLARF hypersonic fire just from quantity pov.

Which I think brings us to the bigger issue of B-21 and NGAD. If PLA can put US carriers in danger with hypersonic anti-ship missiles within second island chain, then longer ranged platform with all aspect stealth will be the big ticket items where PLA face the greatest threat.

To me, it's always easier to deal with these threats by destroying the bases they operate from rather than actually being able to detect them from 1000 km out. The latter seems not possible with current technology even if satellite ISR can tell the when these platforms leave their air bases.

So, how do you threaten bases further out. At a minimum, I think we are talking about Tindal (Darwin), Diego Garcia and Alaska. For Alaska, we are talking about Elmendorf AFB in Anchorage, Elielson AFB and possibly major airports like ANC and FAI. In the latest DOD report, US military has conceded that China can take out bases all the way to Guam. We know that US military is spending money to build out Tindal. In my mind, they can probably take out Tindal and Diego Garcia in the next few years, but things will be operationally challenging because they would need to have a large escort fleet of J-20s supporting H-6Ks operating from Spratley's. Would be hard to protect that with naval escorts once you get out of SCS.

So, what can change that in the next 10 years? The most immediate change is the availability of DF-27. This I think is a huge game changer if it has 5000 to 8000 km range as discussed in DoD report. My only concern is that they won't be able to procure enough of them due to cost for such a platform. There are some seriously worthy targets for DF-27 (like for example aircraft carriers sitting in Pearl Harbor or other capital warships like long range replenishment ship and LHDs. The operational reality of US navy will be quite stark if they cannot be comfortable being able to park carriers like Pearl Harbor. + @Blitzo, @Mohsin77 and @latenlazy for thoughts on this one.

After that, I think CV-18 joining service with J-35 is the next major change. This would remove the range limitations of J-20. For example, you can have CV-18 protected by 093Bs and a whole bunch of ASW assets heading in the Australia direction and having J-35s protecting cover for H-6Ks flying out of Spratley. By having a carrier in the Celebes Sea (between Phillipines and Indonesia), you can have destroyers close enough to launch LACMs. You can have J-35s and KJ-600s able to protect H-6Ks and J-15Bs carrying hypersonic fires and long range LRASM-like missiles at Tindal air base. You could still have YY-20A from Spratleys providing refueling for this type of mission. In the 8 to 10 years, I feel like these are the type of missions that something like CV-18 could provide for PLA.

The big ones after that are obviously H-20 and 095. The former would be able to really threaten Alaska. And if they ever get to the point where they take out the air defense capabilities in Alaska, then it might even be able to threaten bases in British Columbia and Washington state (assuming Russians will allow them to land in air bases in Far East.

For 095, we are making the assumption that it can be built in large numbers and will be similar in noise level to early Virginia class and can carry large number of UVLS. In that scenario, they should be relatively hard to detect in open ocean when operating alone and would be able to launch probably 1000 km long hypersonic missile and 2000 km long subsonic cruise missiles. That would allow them to again threaten Alaska and Pearl Harbour, but also any naval base in the west coast.

So I think in order to deal with the upcoming challenges, they would probably have to build up their own access denial platforms that can deny access much further out than second island chain. I think they are going to have to get to a stage where they are pumping out 5 to 8 095s a year as well as 15 to 20 H-20s.

So like Patch said, the most decisive methods that enable a catastrophic 1st strike are most likely going to be somewhat unconventional in nature (at least by most traditional standards (#TrojanHorse)). He called out YJ-18s in shipping containers near US homeports as a threat the USN is already worried about.

I'll just add that it's really about how far China is willing to go to ensure that the 1st strike is as decisive as possible? e.g. IFF China's intelligence+infiltration capabilities inside CONUS/Hawaii are developed to enable certain options, they would have catastrophic effects in the first few minutes of the war... However, if they are discovered, it would be considered an act of war. But then again, for all we know, the US might already doing the same thing, inside China....

So there's a lot of variables outside of the traditional calculus that also have to be considered.... Those analysts who are good at their job, in both China/US, probably have a lot of sleepless nights worrying about what the enemy might do, plus the opportunities their own side might be able to exploit. It's no wonder that people like Patch have insomnia lolz.
 
Last edited:

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
That's the key question. If you're right, then yes, a blockade and maybe a preemptive strike on US forces makes sense.

And look at what they haven't done. They didn't dare to intervene directly and they barely strike targets in Russia proper. If the Ukraine war teaches us anything, it's that the US thinks very carefully before committing to a conflict with a power who is a peer in the nuclear realm. Once China has 10,000 nukes, the probability of an armed intervention drops considerably. They will of course try to send supplies to the island, but not much will get there because of the difficult logistics compared to Ukraine. Thinking from a political point of view, it might even be better to give the enemy an opportunity to send supplies to Taiwan so they don't feel completely powerless and react unpredictably. Sending weapons to Taiwan won't make a difference, so it should be allowed.

I'm sure the Chinese and American leadership thinks similarly. A nuclear war should be avoided at all costs and getting into a war with the US is too risky. Taiwan isn't worth the risk to all of China in a nuclear exchange and escalation of a Pacific war into a nuclear war is a real possibility
Biden said he will intervene military three times already. The US sees China recovering Taiwan Island as a direct challenge to its Hegemony and its neocons will likely risk nuclear war to stop it. Chinese leadership should plan accordingly.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Biden said he will intervene military three times already. The US sees China recovering Taiwan Island as a direct challenge to its Hegemony and its neocons will likely risk nuclear war to stop it. Chinese leadership should plan accordingly.
Not that it matters, but I am convinced that if a war happens before 2030, China will first strike US forces
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Both signal and human intelligence on Chinese side would be able to see an American invasion a decent amount of time before it is ready to attack.

Threats from Biden don't mean too much. Khrushchev threw a shoe and even more unsubtly than what Biden did, implied the USSR would invade the west. Yet what came out of it?

If it is certain that US will attack, China would most likely a few weeks before that flood the media (both Sinosphere media and western controlled media would eventually pick up headlines) with warnings and strategic leaks about an incoming US operation against Taiwan province.

And then they could either bait the first shot by flying drones extremely close to the invasion forces, or they might straight up attack first.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top