Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
As good as @Patchwork_Chimera's analysis is, the most brilliant thing he wrote is calling Ian Easton an oxygen thief.
I mean, this forum itself is also an incredible place for info on the PLA.

The problem is, it's very, very scattered, and people would need to look through very many pages in many different threads to get many pieces of a puzzle that can be put together to have a good and clear picture of the PLA.

So well, it's just a heck of a lot easier to link to some of @Patchwork_Chimera posts that specificially deals with say, the case of the US military intervening in a Taiwan scenario, and what it actually would face when attacking the PLA.
 

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
The idea of attacking semiconductor fabs to stop PGMs manufacturing is kinda silly. Military hardware account for a tiny proportion of semiconductor use, and chips are incredibly easy to store. Huawei's base station business is still going and they had only a year or so's notice to hoard chips, and I bet a 5G base station uses many, many more exotic customized chips than inertia-satnav guidance system on a PGM, which is basically a more advanced version of what powers the running app in your smartphone. In particular, Beidou is in widespread commercial use with tens of millions of Beidou-enabled devices manufactured each year. Even if military grade Beidou requires different chips, I highly doubt semiconductor would be a bottleneck for making PGMs.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
The idea of attacking semiconductor fabs to stop PGMs manufacturing is kinda silly. Military hardware account for a tiny proportion of semiconductor use, and chips are incredibly easy to store. Huawei's base station business is still going and they had only a year or so's notice to hoard chips, and I bet a 5G base station uses many, many more exotic customized chips than inertia-satnav guidance system on a PGM, which is basically a more advanced version of what powers the running app in your smartphone. In particular, Beidou is in widespread commercial use with tens of millions of Beidou-enabled devices manufactured each year. Even if military grade Beidou requires different chips, I highly doubt semiconductor would be a bottleneck for making PGMs.
Yeah it's a bizarre statement.

Some platforms especially the likes of J-20 and H-20 will be vulnerable to have their plants destroyed by strategic bombing due to how difficult the materials involved are. But IC for basic guided weapons can be stored in insane amounts, plus these are pretty easy to make.

Some of the J-20 parks are also located far inland, around Chengdu and Xian. There is no US weapon that can reach that deep.

B-2s have the highest chance of getting close to China without being clapped, they can further carry 16 long range CJ-10 equivalents each with 1000km range. Even assuming B-2s can get as close as touching the start of the mainland before turning around, they would just barely reach coastal military industry cities like Liaoning. Whatever missiles are launched would be extra prone to interception due to the long ranges.

If said missiles accidentally hit civilians, it would lead to a massive escalation where whoever hosted the base the B-2s flew from would likely face reprisal bombing over their cities.

The unspoken rule in war 2 nuclear powers with apocalyptic sized arsenals would likely be that each side's core territory must be kept relatively safe, casualties must be kept contained to the military.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
A lot of quotes coming in hot and fast, I'll reply to a few select points as I can, if the point of this thread is that lessons should be learnt from Ukraine its that nothing is safe against concentrated long range fires.

The situation facing US and any country unfortunate enough to join the war on their side would be similar to Imperial Japan in ww2. Without raw resources, consumer goods from China and it's allies, the attackers would be fighting a timer towards economical collapse, while PRC gains in strength the longer the war lasts.

As for how South Korea and Japan would be suppressed if they join, Korea would be the first to go, because its so close to China, it can be blockaded far more easily than Japan, and since the Ground Force wouldn't be fighting aside from defending Taiwan Island, the SK army will find itself staring down not just the entire NK and large parts of RU Army, but the brunt of the PLA as well.

But China has quite a bit of prep time, and what stacks things in their advantage is that the Japanese economy will be completely wrecked by energy sanctions, blockade and air raids.
This seems overtly optimistic on China's side and your comparison of Imperial Japan as the West while suggesting that China will have control over mainland Asia is a bit ironic to say the least. Why would Russia support China if China is not support them right now? Additionally to commit troops against Korea will be inviting NATO to get involved in Europe, in which case Russia will be fighting a war on two fronts with limited Chinese ability to aid them.

Lastly there's legitimately no guarantee that the Chinese economy will keep trucking on if their entire foreign economy suddenly drops to a halt aside from importing energy.
As long as China has a clear objective, regardless what reddit strategists wish could happen, Japan would not attack China unless US did it first, and US probably wish Japan would grow a pair and to take on China first. Economics sanctions ? Sure. Attack PRC invasion fleet openly by Japan or SK, highly unlikely, unless Japanese wish their home islands glow at 10,000 degrees for the next 1000 years.
I think pointing to attacking nuclear related facilities is a dangerous game, you're basically advocating tit for tat attacks on civilian infrastructure, which I'm not sure China would come out on top without invoking MAD.

Of course Japan and Korea won't attack first, but if China never fires the first shot then this whole discussion is moot since this whole discussion is about reunification, if Taiwan is unwilling there's only one way for China to take Taiwan, so what is the point of not considering that they will get involved?

Additionally the survival of Taiwan will become a existential concern for both Japan and Korea, if Taiwan falls and the US doesn't stop it, what's stopping China from attacking the other two? Even if those two countries have to expend their entire military they will fight for it, after all this would've been the line in the sand that must not be crossed.
If said missiles accidentally hit civilians, it would lead to a massive escalation where whoever hosted the base the B-2s flew from would likely face reprisal bombing over their cities.

The unspoken rule in war 2 nuclear powers with apocalyptic sized arsenals would likely be that each side's core territory must be kept relatively safe, casualties must be kept contained to the military.
At the point of a Taiwan crisis, civilian casualties are already involved, if you had followed the thread above there are already talks of neutralizing allied forces past to Pearl Harbor, what part of that doesn't involve massive amounts of dead civilians?
The idea of attacking semiconductor fabs to stop PGMs manufacturing is kinda silly. Military hardware account for a tiny proportion of semiconductor use, and chips are incredibly easy to store. Huawei's base station business is still going and they had only a year or so's notice to hoard chips, and I bet a 5G base station uses many, many more exotic customized chips than inertia-satnav guidance system on a PGM, which is basically a more advanced version of what powers the running app in your smartphone. In particular, Beidou is in widespread commercial use with tens of millions of Beidou-enabled devices manufactured each year. Even if military grade Beidou requires different chips, I highly doubt semiconductor would be a bottleneck for making PGMs.
That wasn't my main point, just an aside comparing China's inability to damage the western allies manufacturing centers while the West could conceivably do just that. My point was that strikes on High end chip manufacturing for IOT devices and Smart phones takes years to repair and does not seem to be as impossible as some posters here have implied, this would seriously damage the high value electronic device industry that would slow down the Chinese economy.
There's already examples of dense air defense not being enough to stop strikes in Ukraine, so why is everyone so sure that the Chinese AD is impenetrable?
 

Franklin

Captain
The one lesson that I have learned from the war in Ukraine is that you can use long range MRLS to hit tactical and even strategic targets. For instance China's PHL-16 MRLS has a range of 290km putting most of west Taiwan in range. This is much cheaper and less risky than using planes and ships to hit targets.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
A lot of quotes coming in hot and fast, I'll reply to a few select points as I can, if the point of this thread is that lessons should be learnt from Ukraine its that nothing is safe against concentrated long range fires.


This seems overtly optimistic on China's side and your comparison of Imperial Japan as the West while suggesting that China will have control over mainland Asia is a bit ironic to say the least. Why would Russia support China if China is not support them right now? Additionally to commit troops against Korea will be inviting NATO to get involved in Europe, in which case Russia will be fighting a war on two fronts with limited Chinese ability to aid them.

Lastly there's legitimately no guarantee that the Chinese economy will keep trucking on if their entire foreign economy suddenly drops to a halt aside from importing energy.

I think pointing to attacking nuclear related facilities is a dangerous game, you're basically advocating tit for tat attacks on civilian infrastructure, which I'm not sure China would come out on top without invoking MAD.

Of course Japan and Korea won't attack first, but if China never fires the first shot then this whole discussion is moot since this whole discussion is about reunification, if Taiwan is unwilling there's only one way for China to take Taiwan, so what is the point of not considering that they will get involved?

Additionally the survival of Taiwan will become a existential concern for both Japan and Korea, if Taiwan falls and the US doesn't stop it, what's stopping China from attacking the other two? Even if those two countries have to expend their entire military they will fight for it, after all this would've been the line in the sand that must not be crossed.

At the point of a Taiwan crisis, civilian casualties are already involved, if you had followed the thread above there are already talks of neutralizing allied forces past to Pearl Harbor, what part of that doesn't involve massive amounts of dead civilians?

That wasn't my main point, just an aside comparing China's inability to damage the western allies manufacturing centers while the West could conceivably do just that. My point was that strikes on High end chip manufacturing for IOT devices and Smart phones takes years to repair and does not seem to be as impossible as some posters here have implied, this would seriously damage the high value electronic device industry that would slow down the Chinese economy.
There's already examples of dense air defense not being enough to stop strikes in Ukraine, so why is everyone so sure that the Chinese AD is impenetrable?
Through itself, China commands most of the world's consumer, heavy and electronics industry, but not only that, Russia also provides control over much of the world's grain, oil and basic resources. (which will be further increased with Russia gobbling up Ukraine's farmlands)

You cannot run a country without heating, without electricity, without medicines, without basic goods. The effect of a Chinese led embargo against a hypothetical Japan-US Axis would be similar or greater than the Oil embargo against Japan in ww2, which forced Japan to embark on a series of wars to race against the clock in order to keep up their collapsing economy and oversized military.

Russia will provide unconditional support because a Chinese defeat that doesn't end in MAD will inevitably lead to Russia being puppeted, its population lose its freedom and dignity, its children and women sold as sex slaves across the western world. Like the fall of the USSR but far worse because there is no China to protect Russia.

If a war is limited in scope, Russia doesn't need to fully commit military help in China's direction. Only if the US directly attacks.

The Chinese civil war is not an issue of survival for neither SK nor Japan, in fact it is far more unlikely they would attack China than it is for Russia to jump in during a 2nd Korean war.

Even if Beijing chooses to completely flattern Taiwan province to get rid of the rebels, there's still no overt indication that China would ever take the huge step up in aggressiveness to actually invade a sovereign nation like SK or Japan. Especially since everything China needs is contained within China and the vast lands of siberia itself.

The only real risk for SK to get occupied and Japan to suffer heavy damage and/or be occupied as well is if they decide to start attacking China first. But if they decide to do that, it is as far as I see, well within China's capability to do it. On Japan I cannot be sure, but on SK I'm almost 100% sure.

If such a large war happens then the Chinese economy will 100% stagnate. That much is fine, because the SK and Japan economies will tank to 0 as they eventually get occupied, and the US economy will be in freefall as it can't even deal with measly Russian sanctions without heading into recession.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Through itself, China commands most of the world's consumer, heavy and electronics industry, but not only that, Russia also provides control over much of the world's grain, oil and basic resources. (which will be further increased with Russia gobbling up Ukraine's farmlands)

You cannot run a country without heating, without electricity, without medicines, without basic goods. The effect of a Chinese led embargo against a hypothetical Japan-US Axis would be similar or greater than the Oil embargo against Japan in ww2, which forced Japan to embark on a series of wars to race against the clock in order to keep up their collapsing economy and oversized military.

Russia will provide unconditional support because a Chinese defeat that doesn't end in MAD will inevitably lead to Russia being puppeted, its population lose its freedom and dignity, its children and women sold as sex slaves across the western world. Like the fall of the USSR but far worse because there is no China to protect Russia.

If a war is limited in scope, Russia doesn't need to fully commit military help in China's direction. Only if the US directly attacks.

The Chinese civil war is not an issue of survival for neither SK nor Japan, in fact it is far more unlikely they would attack China than it is for Russia to jump in during a 2nd Korean war.

Even if Beijing chooses to completely flattern Taiwan province to get rid of the rebels, there's still no overt indication that China would ever take the huge step up in aggressiveness to actually invade a sovereign nation like SK or Japan. Especially since everything China needs is contained within China and the vast lands of siberia itself.

The only real risk for SK to get occupied and Japan to suffer heavy damage and/or be occupied as well is if they decide to start attacking China first. But if they decide to do that, it is as far as I see, well within China's capability to do it. On Japan I cannot be sure, but on SK I'm almost 100% sure.

If such a large war happens then the Chinese economy will 100% stagnate. That much is fine, because the SK and Japan economies will tank to 0 as they eventually get occupied, and the US economy will be in freefall as it can't even deal with measly Russian sanctions without heading into recession.
I think we can agree to disagree on this point since you seem pretty set in your position that China is irreplaceable.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I think we can agree to disagree on this point since you seem pretty set in your position that China is irreplaceable.
Even Russia turned out to be able to put every single western country into recession and inflation, I didn't use to be that optimistic about Russia, but they did it, using an economy 7 times smaller than the Chinese one. This underestimation happened because while Russia is poor in service industries, it is richer than it looks in resources.

After seeing that happen IRL, my opinion changed about how heavy Chinese sanctions would hit.

China is not just the largest economy in the world, but its economy is also front loaded into producing tangible goods rather than services.
 

tch1972

Junior Member
USN doesn't need to enter anywhere near mainland as China relies on shipping for it's survival and those cargo ships can be seized or sunk outside any island chains. What is PLAN gonna do... sit inside those chains while vital cargo is being taken away from them?

This kinda tactics work perfect against China and it forces PLAN to move outside safe zones.
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Such idea is not practical as china bound cargo ship also carry cargoes to be loaded and offloaded in different ports.

For instance an Eastern bound cargo ship will made port call in Colombo port, chittagong, port klang, tp Pelapas, Singapore, HK, shanghai etc.

Moreover china bound container ships usually have high volume of empty containers compare to western bounds ships from China. This is because China export much more than they import
 
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