Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
So you guys keep saying Russia expected a quick win. I have seen some people claim BS like victory in 2-3 days even.
Except there is no evidence of this and in fact quite the opposite. If the whole objective was a decapitation attack on the Ukrainian government why even enter Mariupol in the first place? Try looking at a goddamned map.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Because if the decapitation attack against Kyiv worked then Russian attack in the south would both have a easy time, and help establish the facts on the ground to justify annexing the regions and the rest of Ukrainian Black Sea coast to ensure future good behavior of the puppet regime in Kyiv.

The Kyiv attack having failed, and Ukrainian resistance proving much stronger and far better supported than expected, Russia now has no choice but to settle for a long war to achieve the same territorial goals required to achieve the original long term strategic goals.
 

texx1

Junior Member
I don’t believe he was being entirely truthful.

The US had said all through late January and early February that if Russia attacked Ukraine proper, as opposed to Danbass, the west will coordinate a freezing of Russian foreign reserves and severing of russia from SWIFT.

The US said it publically abs often enough that it has to be seen that there is a high chance the US would follow through because it would be very embarrassing for the US to make such threats and then make it hollow,

This is something putin should have realized very clearly because he was in the middle of wanting the US to realize his threat to attack Ukraine would be followed through because it would be very embarrassing for the russia to make such threats and then make it hollow. he certainly must realize the US is in the middle of doing same with threats to freeze russian foreign reserve and cutting off swift.

Had russia been able to quickly overwhelm ukraine and install a pro-russia poppet government in ukraine, say within 2 weeks. the move to freeze russian foreign reserve and severe russia from SWIFT would not have lasted long. The fact that war ended with little casualties means outrage at russia would quickly fade. The slogan of reducing reliance on Russian gas and oil will also quickly wear thin. Soon russian gas and oil will return themain negotiating leverage back to russia, and russia can use conditional delivery of oil and gas to pry frozen foreign reserve out of the hands of the west, and insist on restoration of SWIFT.

So my conclusion is Russia factored the freezing of its foreign reserve and its cut off from SWIFT into its profit loss assessment of a successful invasion of ukraine.

Where they went wrong is they did much less well during the invasion of ukraine than they anticipated and as a result was unable to wrap up the ukrainian “special operation”. So western hostility is daily becoming greater, while the day when russia can regain enough leverage with its oil and gas to reclaim its foreign is receding beyond the edge of foreseeable future.

I think the reason why the russian foreign minister would now claim to a domestic audience that freezing of foreign reserve and cutting off of SWIFT was unexpected is simply to detach the link between the fact russia would be unable to reclaim its foreign reserve and restore SWIFT access in the foreseeable future from Russia’s abysmal performance in ukraine and inability to put the war behind itself and behind the world’s focus in the foreseeable future.

Instead Russia would like to refocus discontent that might arise from its poor military performance into anger towards the west for supposedly going beyond the pail and taking extremist measures in its treatment of russia.
Given the publicly issued threats by the west, Russia central bank could have transferred the majority of FX reserves held in hostile jurisdictions as a precautionary move before the actual invasion. It only needed to keep a minimum level in western institutions to cover for short term clearing needs. Russia didn't do that probably because they thought they would have an easy and quick victory. It just goes to show that it's always prudent to prepare for the worst case scenario, a lesson hopefully China takes to heart.
 

weig2000

Captain
And similarly, China should start divesting itself of its dollar reserved assets if America gets overly antagonist (even if the mainland is not looking to attack Taiwan). It's not uncommon in the past year for right wing politicians to call for seizure of Chinese holdings on US treasury as a reparation to COVID.

It is a little bit of mystery what China is doing with its current trading surplus with America
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It would be very difficult for China to divest from the dollar system in short to medium term. It would require China to fundamentally change its current economic and financial systems. Also, China and Chinese economy are simply too large and too important for the global economic system.

Start with its foreign currency reserves, which was actually peaked around a decade ago at about $4 trn. They have since diversified somewhat, with the establishment of China Investment Corp and starting investing in riskier asset classes other than government or government-sponsored securities. But Chinese reserves are simply too large for the world. Where do you park them? The US and West have been restricting what China can invest in their domestic markets and many of the strategic and industrial assets are simply off the limit. Sure you can buy commodities, but they will drive up the commodity prices significantly plus you would have to store them somewhere. Bottomline, commodity markets are simply not large enough for Chinese reserves.

The concern about the safety of its foreign currency reserves is not something new for China, although driven by different reasons. It was a big concern over a decade ago right after the financial crisis in 2008. At the time, Chinese leaders such as Wang Qishan were on the phone with Treasury Secretary Henry Hanks regularly about the financial situation in the US and Chinese premier Wen Jiabao openly expressed concerns about the safety of its reserve assets. I guess some kind of consensus was that there was really not much you could do drastically in the short-term, but longer term you would have to change your economic model to be less export-driven and more service-oriented domestically.

To some, some if not much of the foreign reserves probably would never be recovered. If there is any consolation in this, it is that unlike other developing countries or commodity-rich countries (e.g., Middle Eastern ones) which park their national wealth in the western markets, for China it's a downpayment for the largest-scale industrialization and infrastructure buildout in human history. If one really wants to be evil, those foreign reserves could also be considered the prices paid for deindustrialization of the US and much of the West, if it comes to the loss of the reserves someday.

Back to the topic of what if the US/West freeze/confiscate Chinese foreign reserve assets parked at the western central banks and financial markets, well, it'll be a huge shock to the global economic and financial systems, which will make the current sanctions on Russian pale in comparison. Don't forget, the western countries have $trillion of assets in China and China's pivotal role in global production system and supply chains. It would be truly MAD in economic and financial sphere. China would survive though. Its comprehensive and huge industrial base, infrastructure and domestic market will continue exist. World economy will restructure.

But, the US ruling elites would be deluding themselves in thinking the sanctions they apply to Russia and the "unity" they show in doing so would deter China from taking resolution action on Taiwan. When the red lines are crossed on Taiwan, China would do everything and anything for Taiwan. The similarity between Ukraine vs Russia and Taiwan vs China only goes so far.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Because if the decapitation attack against Kyiv worked then Russian attack in the south would both have a easy time, and help establish the facts on the ground to justify annexing the regions and the rest of Ukrainian Black Sea coast to ensure future good behavior of the puppet regime in Kyiv.

The Kyiv attack having failed, and Ukrainian resistance proving much stronger and far better supported than expected, Russia now has no choice but to settle for a long war to achieve the same territorial goals required to achieve the original long term strategic goals.
And how was this decapitation attack on Kiev, a city with close to 3.5 million people, going to happen with the troops the Russians sent there? Are you telling me one unit of VDV would do it? Why bother having large standing armies then? You just send Rambo in a tin can air transportable vehicle and he'll take on the whole Ukrainian army. At best I could see an argument about it being a probing attack in multiple directions and then a pullback and strike on the weaker positions. But that is not what happened is it. They had already bypassed and totally surrounded Chernigov. They already held most of the north of Kiev. So why did they pull back, and send all their troops towards Izium, the place which was actually the one with the greatest resistance? Not Kiev. Izium and Sumy were the places which were holding their attack the best. In the Kiev area they relatively easily entered the towns around Kiev they wanted to at will even with the light armor. The problem would have been going into Kiev with just those units. Kiev is just too big. If you wanted to do an early attack on it, you couldn't spread your troops like they did. And if attacking Kiev was the main objective there wouldn't have been any need to go into Zaporizhzhia at all. Why bother driving all over Ukraine across its whole length all the way from Crimea when Kiev is right next to the Belarussian border? Makes zero sense.

I think the Russians just had the following objectives. Connect Donbass to Crimea, deny Ukraine use of its ports, possibly a defeat in detail of Ukrainian forces in the field. And maybe if they haven't achieved their objectives even then that is when they will start going for other larger objectives like taking the largest cities. And if they do that Odessa and Kharkiv, as cities in the Russian ethnic areas, are the most likely initial objectives. Not Kiev. The fact they regrouped to attack at the strongest resistance point, to me, tells me they are aiming for destruction of the Ukrainian army. i.e. the demilitarization bit announced as a mission objective when this all started. That is ahead of conquering cities.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
And how was this decapitation attack on Kiev, a city with close to 3.5 million people, going to happen with the troops the Russians sent there? Are you telling me one unit of VDV would do it? Why bother having large standing armies then? You just send Rambo in a tin can air transportable vehicle and he'll take on the whole Ukrainian army. At best I could see an argument about it being a probing attack in multiple directions and then a pullback and strike on the weaker positions. But that is not what happened is it. They had already bypassed and totally surrounded Chernigov. They already held most of the north of Kiev. So why did they pull back, and send all their troops towards Izium, the place which was actually the one with the greatest resistance? Not Kiev. Izium and Sumy were the places which were holding their attack the best. In the Kiev area they relatively easily entered the towns around Kiev they wanted to at will even with the light armor. The problem would have been going into Kiev with just those units. Kiev is just too big. If you wanted to do an early attack on it, you couldn't spread your troops like they did. And if attacking Kiev was the main objective there wouldn't have been any need to go into Zaporizhzhia at all. Why bother driving all over Ukraine across its whole length all the way from Crimea when Kiev is right next to the Belarussian border? Makes zero sense.

I think the Russians just had the following objectives. Connect Donbass to Crimea, deny Ukraine use of its ports, possibly a defeat in detail of Ukrainian forces in the field. And maybe if they haven't achieved their objectives even then that is when they will start going for other larger objectives like taking the largest cities. And if they do that Odessa and Kharkiv, as cities in the Russian ethnic areas, are the most likely initial objectives. Not Kiev. The fact they regrouped to attack at the strongest resistance point, to me, tells me they are aiming for destruction of the Ukrainian army. i.e. the demilitarization bit announced as a mission objective when this all started. That is ahead of conquering cities.


My read is Russia clearly grossly underestimated the capabilities of Ukrainian forces on the path to Kyiv and the strength of Ukrainian forces available to defend key government centers in Kyiv if it is attacked, as well as grossly underestimated the cohesion and resolve of Ukrainian forces once war has started.

Russia clearly believed Ukrainian forces on the path to Kyiv can be effectively neutralized or at least fixed by the Russian forces involved in the main thrust towards Kyiv, so they can neither greatly hinder the Russian land advance nor retreat into Kyiv to strengthen the advantageous built up defensive positions. They also clearly believed that within a few days after the start of hostility, the forces available to defend inner part of Kyiv would amount to no more than the equivalent of perhaps few battalions worth of light regular troops, that could be overcomes with an sustained assault by elite helicopter or airborne troops operating from a nearby captured and secured air field.

This is why they mounted an early airborne special forces assault on airfields near Kyiv. The intention is to be able to used the airfields as a staging area to shuttle airborne forces into Kyiv starting perhaps with 24-48 hours of start of hostility, while the land based forces make rapid progress to open up lane corridor to the airport, and then from there link up with parachute troops already established in center of Kyiv and occupied the government quarters.

Perhaps Russia believed that was the actual total strength and capabilities of the Ukrainian forces in each of these roles, or the Russians believed there would be enough defections after the start of the hostilities that the effective strength of the Ukrainian forces they would encounter at each place will be very weak.

Given the classical military dictum that effective military offensive against determined enemy requires a 3:1 advantage to succeed, and Russia attacked without even having numerical parity, Russia clearly counted on many things all going in its favor. These undoubted includes:

1. Most Ukrainian forces are ineffective so doesn’t count anywhere close to being 1 to 1 match with Russian forces
2. Ukraine does not have stomach or the capacity to mount a determined urban defence in Kyiv even against a fast but moderate attack by comparatively lightly armed airborne forces
3. In the field the Ukrainian forces not only can not maneuver operationally, but can’t really even maneuver tactically, when attacked by fast moving Russian forces
And possibly, 4. Most Ukrainian forces won’t fight or may even join the Russians.

Incidentally, I see many posters on this forum who make the same assumptions about forces in Taiwan that may oppose a Chinese attack, and some get very defensive and even crossed if these assumptions are challenged.
 
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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
So you guys keep saying Russia expected a quick win. I have seen some people claim BS like victory in 2-3 days even.
Except there is no evidence of this and in fact quite the opposite. If the whole objective was a decapitation attack on the Ukrainian government why even enter Mariupol in the first place? Try looking at a goddamned map.
I don't think Russia expected a quick win, but they certainly expected an easy win. They hoped a shock and awe campaign with multiple advances would cause Ukrainian lines to collapse or defect with minimal fighting. That's exactly what a lot of people think an invasion of Taiwan would go.

Well it didn't happen and now Russia is in a real war where they will need to mass kill Ukrainians in order to get a win, something they've been reluctant to do so far despite multiple provocations. There will be a lot more dead than if Russia had started the war fighting properly in the first place. It's probably better that way if you want a long term solution.

Mariupol was only entered 1-2 weeks into the war once reports of civilians being shot emerged. Maybe it was part of the plan or maybe it wasn't. I don't know how that excuses the disastrous push towards Kiev. The Russians should have forced their way to Kiev with force and put it under siege properly.
 
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