Ladakh Flash Point

muddie said:

Very interesting graphs.

It would be interesting to know how he is calculating the "relative standings". For instance how is the Ottoman Empire consistently ranked so low (I find that hard to believe)? Also interesting that the U.S. is ranked higher than the height of the British Empire, or that China is somehow more powerful than the height of the USSR...? Unless I am misreading these graphs.

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Read the whole publication I provided in the link. There are more comprehensive literature available on this topic and even by Ray, discussing points not mentioned.

China was much lower than the USSR during the same era. It is now however far greater because of the contributing factors. USSR never had a real consumer economy or exports outside of tools for destruction. HUGE differences. USSR was certainly a political, philosophical, and 100% a military juggernaut, it scored mostly on influence and military. Nothing else and on that it's shown to be ahead of every other nation in its peak days, except for the US.

Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal

The Chinese don’t like the Sikhs, their war cry ‘ Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal’ frightens them , their huge frames with long hair and beard frightens the clean shaven slick looking Chinese.
At Doklam, three years ago, the best of Chinese troops had wilted under the brute strength of the Sikhs , one of whose havildar likened the push and shove to kabaddi.

On the night of 15th June, as the 16th Bihar troops faced a murderous and treacherous unprovoked Chinese assault , taking heavy casualties, they found critical support from the gunners of the 3 Medium Field Regiment.

The valiant Khalsas launched a barehanded counter-attack with their trademark blood curling war cries about an hour after the Bihar troops had got embroiled in the savage hand-to-hand combat , having to fight with sticks , bare hands, rocks and with weapons snatched from the Chinese.
The Sikhs went straight for the jugular , attacking a ‘senior looking officer ‘ protecting by six Chinese guards.

“They killed all the six guards and dragged the senior officer by the scruff of his neck in a bloody fight lasting for 30 minutes,” said an eye-witness of the 16th Bihar Regiment. ” They fought like men possessed, smashing Chinese heads with rocks and slashing them with swords snatched from the Chinese.”

Other Chinese troops in the vicinity fled or stayed away , in sheer fright . Two Sikh gunners died when struck by swords but one of them strangled a Chinese to death in the squeeze of his massive biceps , all along shouting ‘Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal.”

The angry , bloodied Sikhs were about to thrash the senior officers when the JCO leading them glanced at the stars on his epaulets and stopped them, imagining he must be colonel. The JCO was right — this was the Chinese colonel who had planned the treacherous attack on Colonel B.Santosh Babu, CO, 16th Bihar.

This CO greatly helped fast tracking of GOC level negotiations* held between the two sides on 17/18 Jun, leading to quick exchange of 10 Indians against the lone captured Chinese Commanding Officer.

That the ten Indians including two majors were released without torture and torment might owe itself to the Chinese Colonel being in the custody of Sikh gunners.

Down India’s medieval and modern military history , the burly and fearless Sikhs have turned the fate of many a battles with sheer bravery.
They — and their corps commander Lt Gen Harinder Singh — again proved they are peerless warriors on the night of 15th June.

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You think India is going to take the lead. The reason why everyone has been doing nothing against China is because everyone is expecting the other to do something about it. Yeah India loses against China and you won't be seeing anyone watching out for India. It's like when Japan had their island dispute with China, Japan's economy went into a recession while China didn't feel a thing. But Japan's allies were eager to fill-in the gap left by Japan. That's why when Obama tried to gang-up with Japan and South Korea against China, Japan just started to pick a fight with South Korea instead ruining Obama's plans.

localizer said:

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No military and people on this planet congratulate and delude themselves as much as Indians. Even in such humiliating defeat and surrender, they find the face to continue self promotion on top of lies.

No Indian governments, from Nehru to Modi, trust Indian military completely. They are set up for failure since day one.


India's 1st commander-in-chief takes over sans powers
By appointing first chief of defense staff with curtailed powers, premier Modi ensures civilian supremacy, say experts
Iftikhar Gilani |
02.01.2020
India's 1st commander-in-chief takes over sans powersIndia's Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat inspects the Tri-Service Guard of Honour in New Delhi, Wednesday, Jan. 1, 2020. (PTI Photo)


ANKARA

As India recently appointed its first commander-in-chief -- a single point authority to head all the three defense services -- the powers of the post have been curtailed sufficiently to avoid the possibility of any military take over and to ensure civilian supremacy.

Soon after fighting the war in Kargil region of Jammu and Kashmir in 1999 several panels were formed. They ranged from from the Kargil Review Committee led by noted strategic expert Krishnaswamy Subrahmanyam to the 14-member task force chaired by former Cabinet Secretary Naresh Chandra. All of them identified many fault lines in the Indian security system, including the lack of coordination between the army, the air force and the navy, coupled with a colossal intelligence failure.

One of the suggestions proposed by all the panels, including by a group of ministers led by then Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani, was to carve out a post of chief of defense staff (CDS) -- a five-star general -- to supervise all the three services, to ensure coordination and their integration. The post was meant to provide single-point military advice to the civilian authority, led by the prime minister.

During the British era, India had a single commander-in-chief for all the three services. But soon after independence in 1947, this arrangement was discarded. According to government business rules, separate commanders independent of each other were appointed to each service, the army, the air force, and the navy. The service chiefs were not authorized to issue any orders on behalf of the government. Even in decisions of procurement of arms, they had only recommendatory powers.

Among the various landmark decisions Prime Minister Narendra Modi took in his second tenure, like revocation of autonomy to Jammu and Kashmir, adopting a new citizenship law and paving way for the construction of Ram temple at the site of the demolished Babri Mosque, the appointment of CDS is also seen as a milestone in the country’s history.

But many strategic experts feel that terms of reference for this post falls short of expectations and recommendations of expert panels. Instead of making this post superior to three service chiefs, the CDS has been kept equivalent to them. Instead of adorning five stars, the CDS will continue to have four stars on the badge. In a way, he will be a sort of permanent chairman of the chiefs of staff committee. The post earlier was rotating between the senior-most service chief.

But many others are happy that a military general will be part of the day to day functioning of India’s Defense Ministry, which was largely manned by a civilian bureaucracy. The CDS will have powers equaling to a secretary.

"This is a historic step. From being just attached to offices, the armed forces have entered the central edifice of the government of India, something we have been asking for years," says retired Admiral Arun Prakash, former navy chief and member of the Naresh Chandra Task Force on Defense Reforms.

Civilian leadership refuse to part powers

When India lost its first full-scale war with China in 1962, various experts at that time had also suggested integrating the three services.

But taking lessons from frequent military interventions that had disrupted civilian rule in nearby Pakistan, Myanmar, Thailand, and other countries, then Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru rejected the idea. Successive governments also staunchly protected the civilian control of the military. Not only the civilian political leadership, some sections of Indian bureaucracy including intelligence agencies, police forces, etc. harbored fears that a single-point military commander will destabilize institutional arrangement in India.

In January 2012, when then Army Chief General Vijay Kumar Singh got embroiled with the government on the issue of his date of birth, intelligence agencies had reported an unexpected movement of key military units in the direction of capital New Delhi from various cantonments.

Though later clarification came that it was a usual military drill, to check the ability to make quick deployment during fog, the absence of usual protocols like not taking prior permission from the Defense Ministry and not informing the Air Force, raised suspicion.

The English language newspaper The Indian Express, which reported about the movement stated that given strained political-military relations over the weeks, nothing could be easily dismissed as a routine misdemeanor. The timing of the army chief’s petition seeking extension and the government turning down his recommendations to appoint Lt. Gen. Ashok Kumar Choudhary as director-general of Assam Rifles, a paramilitary force under the army’s control, had sent alarms bells ringing in New Delhi.

The notification that approved the appointment of General Bipin Rawat as India’s first CDS, soon after his retirement from the post of army chief has taken care, not to vest too much authority in the post. “Though the CDS will be a pointsman for the services to contact civilian authority, he will be among one of the secretaries in the Defense Ministry,” said an Indian government official, on the condition of anonymity.

That the CDS will not will not exercise control over any military command is among the many safeguards in place to avoid threats.

“The CDS will be a member of the Defense Acquisition Council, under defense minister, and Defense Planning Committee, chaired by national security advisor. He will also function as the military advisor to the Nuclear Command Authority,” stated the notification cleared by Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

The notification clarifies that the CDS will not command any troops on the ground. He will merely administer tri-services organizations like the Strategic Forces Command, the Andaman & Nicobar Command, the Defense Cyber Agency and the proposed divisions for space.

CDS to head military affairs department

The CDS will head the Department of Military Affairs (DMA), a new department carved out in the Defense Ministry. He will report to Defense Minister Rajnath Singh. Indian’s Defense Ministry has already five departments headed by secretaries -- departments of defense, defense procurement, defense research and development organization, ex-servicemen's welfare and defense finance.

The new CDS will work as the sixth secretary while heading the DMA. There is an ambiguity over the role of the defense secretary, who heads the bureaucracy in the ministry. While the rules say, he will continue to remain the primary link to coordinate the activities of all departments, there is no clarity in the relations between the CDS and defense secretaries. According to the Government of India Rules of Business 1961, the defense secretary continues to be responsible for the defense of the country.

By making a four-star and not a five-star general as CDS, Modi has ensured civilian control of defense ministry, said Ajay Shukhla, a military expert.

“He (Modi) has also obviated fear of a military coup by a powerful CDS, while at the same time fulfilling a long-standing demand of appointing a commander in chief. He has also rewarded Gen. Rawat, who has proved a politically useful general for him,” he added.

Strategic expert, Pravin Sawhney believes that in the current format the CDS will in no way help in war preparedness. He said the appointment falls short of recommendations by various panels. “The CDS in the current format is likely to prepare the military to fight the wrong enemy, the wrong war with wrong procurements, training, and mindset. While it might help the Modi government politically, it would make India weak militarily,” he wrote in a defense journal.

The most important task before Gen. Rawat would be constructing integrated military commands in his three years tenure. This is a problem area with deep implications, as no service will like to lose control or share control with others.

The other important task of the CDS will be in the nuclear weapons policy formulation, update, and execution. According to the new scheme of things, the head of Strategic Forces Command will report directly to the CDS, who in turn, will report to the National Security Advisor (NSA).

While the strategic target list update will be the joint responsibility of the NSA and the CDS, after clearance from the Prime Minister, it will remain in the NSA’s custody. Interestingly, the service chiefs will be outside the nuclear weapons’ loop. A former defense secretary told Anadolu Agency that oversight and control of the military's promotions, postings, and foreign assignments and travel will give the CDS enough powers to show his clout.

Strained civil-military relations

Lately, some signs of strain in the civil-military relationship have manifested in India on issues such as the Siachen glacier, debate over repealing of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in Kashmir and employment of the army against left-wing extremists in various states.

A few years ago, the Home Ministry and the army had come face to face, when the former had recommended the withdrawal of the AFSPA from Kashmir in phases. There has been also a strain on the issue of promotions, pay, and allowances. The rift came wide open when the pay commissions submitted their recommendations in 2008 and 2016. In 2008, the pay commission almost made state police chiefs equivalent to lieutenant generals. In 2016, they were again up in arms, as they believed that their status has been further lowered compared with the police service in terms of promotions and increments. In the civilian bureaucracy some 80–90% officers become additional secretaries and about 60–70% full secretaries. In the armed forces, however, only about 10% reach the level of lieutenant general, said retired Brig. Deepak Sharma, a commentator on military affairs.

The services are also demanding the same pension for the same ranks for the same length of service irrespective of the date of retirement for 2.6 million ex-servicemen and 60,000 widows.

India’s main opposition Congress party has also raised several questions over the appointment of Gen. Rawat as the CDS. The party spokesperson Manish Tewari said the government has started on a wrong foot on the appointment fraught with serious implications.

"Will the advice of the CDS override the advice of the respective service chiefs. Would the three chiefs report to the defense minister through defense secretary or CDS now," he asked.

He also raised the question of ambiguity left between the positions of CDS and defense secretary.

“What are the implications of the appointment of a CDS on civil-military relations -- the equilibrium of which has been India's singular success since 1947? Are we down a portentous path," he asked.

-And reforms to the pla mean that a single general would be in charge of all Chinese forces at the border, whereas the Indian command would be split between officers from different services.


India’s armed forces get their biggest shake-up in decades
For the first time a single officer will be in charge of them all

Asia
Jan 18th 2020 edition
Jan 18th 2020
When jawaharlal nehru became the prime minister of India at independence in 1947, one of his first acts was to evict the country’s commander-in-chief, General Sir Rob Lockhart, from Flagstaff House, among the grandest mansions in Delhi. In a pointed gesture of civilian supremacy, Mr Nehru then moved in himself. A few years later he abolished the post of commander-in-chief entirely. The three coequal chiefs of the army, navy and air force have battled it out ever since, often quite heatedly.

That changed on January 1st when Bipin Rawat, the army chief (pictured), was handed a new uniform, a plush house and a newly minted job: Chief of Defence Staff (cds). The creation of such a post had been mooted for decades, especially after the army and air force squabbled during a war against Pakistan in 1999. But there was resistance from civilians, who feared that a cds might accrue too much authority, and from the air force, which saw it as a power grab by the already-dominant army.

Narendra Modi, the prime minister, swept those concerns aside. He has the largest parliamentary majority since 1984, a taste for grand gestures, and military threats on two fronts. Last year a terrorist attack in Kashmir resulted in an exchange of air strikes with Pakistan; relations have been fraught since. To the east, China’s defence budget is now triple India’s. New roads and railways into Tibet allow the People’s Liberation Army (pla) to move troops to its disputed border with India quickly, while Indian forces are trapped in narrow valleys below. And reforms to the pla mean that a single general would be in charge of all Chinese forces at the border, whereas the Indian command would be split between officers from different services.

The new cds will not solve all these problems. Unlike his British counterpart, General Rawat will not in fact exercise any military command at all. He instead chairs a committee of the three service chiefs, who will still be able to go over his head to the defence minister. But he will have an office of over 60 people and influence over promotions and postings, giving him powerful levers to force the services to work together on everything from logistics to training—improving what military types call “jointness”.

More important, he has also been told to prepare the armed forces for theatre commands on the American or Chinese model. Under such a system, all forces in a given area, whatever their service, are under the command of a single officer. That idea has previously been anathema to the air force, in particular, which recoils from the idea that an army general might dictate how warplanes should be used.

The Indian armed forces are “at the cusp of a transformation”, says Anit Mukherjee, author of “The Absent Dialogue: Politicians, Bureaucrats and the Military in India”. But he warns that bureaucratic skirmishing from civilians and the services has neutered such efforts in the past. India’s lone joint command, in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, is a largely failed experiment in inter-service harmony.

General Rawat’s promotion also raises questions about civil-military relations. Mr Modi has been accused of politicising the armed forces. In 2014, when he first became prime minister, he gave a ministerial post to V.K. Singh, a former army chief who had clashed with the previous government. During last year’s election campaign, Mr Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party (bjp) displayed military images on campaign posters and publicised an event at which seven army veterans, including five retired generals, joined the party as the defence minister looked on approvingly. Another bjp leader, Yogi Adityanath, chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, described the Indian armed forces as “Modi’s army”. These episodes prompted over 150 senior veterans, including three former army chiefs, to write to the president to express their “alarm and disquiet”.

As army chief, General Rawat did little to allay these concerns. He “has often ventured into political and foreign-policy territory with his media statements, making many observers uncomfortable”, notes Sushant Singh, a former army officer who is now deputy editor of the Indian Express. In December, just days before becoming cds, General Rawat provoked anger by criticising students protesting against a controversial citizenship bill.

His successor as army chief, General M.M. Naravane, struck a very different note in his first public remarks on January 12th. “As the army, we swear allegiance to the constitution of India,” he said. “Justice, liberty, equality and fraternity...should guide us.” The fact that those values were drawn from the constitution’s preamble, which has been read aloud at protests across the country, was not lost on anyone.

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I love it, they got such good imaginations. Next thing you know, India didn't actually lose 20 soldiers.. they had to kill themselves to make the Indian kill ratio reasonable after killed 3 million PLA... O wait they did kill themsleves.. nm

India has been fighting all these border wars without a commander in chief. They got one in 2020 finally, only to find out he actually commands no army, sits as a chairman of a committee pushing papers and controls 60 chaprasi.
Somewhat dated news from last year Modi announcing the position.

WORLD NEWSAUGUST 15, 2019 / 6:04 AM / 10 MONTHS AGO
Indian PM Modi announces chief of defense staff post to improve military integration
Sanjeev Miglani
2 MIN READ

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi inspects the honour guard during Independence Day celebrations at the historic Red Fort in Delhi, India, August 15, 2019. REUTERS/Adnan Abidi
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced on Thursday the establishment of the post of chief of defense staff for better coordination between the army, air force and navy along the lines of Western military forces.

Defense experts have long called for such a post. A government committee recommended such a position in 1999, after India came close to war with Pakistan over the disputed region of Kashmir, to ensure the three defense arms operate together.

“Our forces are India’s pride. To further sharpen coordination between the forces, I want to announce a major decision ... India will have a chief of defense staff,” Modi said in an Independence Day address.

India had organized its military into three different services, each led by its own chief, since independence from Britain in 1947. Such an arrangement was thought necessary to ensure too much power was not concentrated in the hands of a single commander.

However, with military operations now involving close integration, many countries have moved to a single chief of defense staff who directs the military and often reports directly to the political executive for faster decision-making.

Former army lieutenant general H.P. Panag said there was too much squabbling in the previous structure.

“Each service has its own ethos and considers itself as the prima donna of war,” Panag said. “The chiefs feel that under a CDS they will become virtual non-entities. The small services fear that they will be subsumed.”

Modi said the establishment of a chief of defense staff was an important step towards military reform. The new chief would also have control over funding for the military, which is struggling to modernise its Soviet-era equipment.

Modi’s Hindu nationalist ruling group has long promoted national security as a top priority to face the challenge from Pakistan and China, with which it shares disputed borders.

Reporting by Sanjeev Miglani; Editing by Paul Tait

My question is simple -
Why aren't the press of the West shaken up by all these great stories of Indian supremacy over the Chinese "weaklings" ?
It was my understanding that the "Western press" spared no chance in making sure any and all missteps, shortfalls and blunders of a Communist Army is properly shown to everyone.

All I see are niche Tabloids ( USNews) and Falung Gong / Taiwan GP sympathetic press trying to highlight these tales of great Indian supremacy.

I am genuinely curious.