Ladakh Flash Point

lgnxz said:

It's always been like that. I even use the maps from his own source to crosscheck it into the recent video that PLA released, showing how his sources actually backfired against him and instead corroborated the narrative from the Chinese side.

Instead of addressing his mistakes and admit that he's losing his argument, this guy will just keep gish galloping into another long drawn-out topics with map and link dumps and give the silent treatment to his losing argument, thinking that by ignoring them he'd still keep his face and other members watching the thread would not notice and won't consider him a complete indiot. This is what he considers to be as 'winning' the discussion, which makes sense since he seems to completely lack self-awareness or feeling of shame.

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LST said:

Can't you see it - It is as if, if they don't acknowledge the defeat- then they have not been defeated. And if they tried even harder and claimed victory, then victory is theirs...despite the reality on the grounds. Their simple objectives - to never admit defeat and to claim victory (but not complete victory - btw, which war has complete victory?) or having a better deal.

What if this is the case of different people placing different values on the same thing? In this case, we have 2 winners which is fine and well but try this...

The question to ask both sides is - "Are you willing to settle for the same thing again?" Further interpretation - is the party that got slapped in the face and lost his pants but claimed victory willing to go through the same thing again in the next round - another slap on the face, lose another pants but allowed to claim victory? The truth is inside you. You can't lie to yourself.

Glad the standoff is over (Less sufferings on both side. Why the hxll do countries get into such confrontations?!) but I can't help but to laugh at the absurdity of "we got a better deal". Again, please ask the question above if you truly got a better deal.

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Xsizor said:

You are trying to present this as an Indian Victory. Somehow, in your world, India not being able to patrol its own traditional patrol points is an Indian Victory.
You never picked up the Hot Springs and Gogra affair ? What happened ? Just like you never pick up so many of other posts after their rebuttal.

Those positions are in Depsang which can act as a launch pad to cut of DBO. My math says China might not be interested in giving up Depsang anytime soon.

Do you have sources to show India did not do a mirror pull back in Kailash and South Pangong Tso ? Why has India lost and retreated from Kailash range?
Do you have sources to show that India can patrol beyond PP17A and PP15 like in the past ?
Do you have sources showing that India never patrolled past point 2 upto Point8 in North Panging Tso ?

Besides these -

Do you have sources showing China is the aggressor ( in the context China has shown ground video of India being one) ?
Do you have sources showing 2*x+n soldiers of China being killed ? Any images of those numerous dead chinese soldiers ?



Nathan Ruser wasn't alone in asserting China was the aggressor. All those assertions fell through when China released the videos of Chinese soldiers scuffle with Indian ones in PP14. It's upto you to ask Nathan Ruser, your master perhaps, to analyse and discredit the video. Was Nathan Ruser at the ground where he led India confront Chinese?

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twineedle said:

So what is the reality on the grounds , according to you? How has India been defeated? Did China secure its strategic goal of reaching its 1959 claim line? Has India lost land it previously controlled?

Spoiler alert: none of that is true

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Xsizor said:

Spoiler alert for Bollywood fan - China thwarted Indian incursion into PP14 in Galwan and then proceeded to stop Indian patrols past Finger 2 in Pangong Tso and Hot Springs and Gogra .

India has lost plenty of land the past decade (Depsang being the largest in 2013). But losing Patrol points past Finger 2/3 and not being able to patrol beyond Hot Springs and Gogra can be India Winning ?

How is reaching 19XX claim line Chinese Strategic Goal ? Did you receive any secret document from PLA saying that is their goal before the events of 2020 ?

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twineedle said:

Before 2020, Kailash was unoccupied. India only occupied them as a bargaining chip to get China to retreat from Pangong. China did that, and even removed its original condition of India vacating Dhan Singh Thapa. So now there is no reason for India to occupy those heights. China also vacated black top and helmet top. When did I deny that a mutual withdrawal occured at Kailash. I have already provided sources that india rarely, if ever patrolled past finger 2. Why did China give up patrolling rights to finger 2 and destroy all of its strategic infrastructure it built between fingers 4-8? And when did I claim that "2*X" Chinese soldiers died? And do you really think a few video clips count as conclusive proof? If China wanted to decisively prove its narrative, it would have released the full unedited video footage. It did not, which means the video release was purely for appeasing domestic audience in the wake of its retreat. Just look at this forum. When news of the disengagement deal first broke out, many members here thought China got a bad deal. Then when the video came out, the narrative suddenly changed to Chinese victory because India was supposedly the aggressor. BTW, India cannot be the agressor and lose territory at the same time(satellite imagery has disproven both those claims). Please pick a narrative and stick with it.

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Xsizor said:

China gave India that Chip. China could have contested that move but didnt as it was in Chinese interest to have the disengagement sealed ( which was failing prior as India had no bargaining chip and China had all the chips).

India confronted China at Helmet Top and Black Top ( even though there were a bit lower in elevation and on the other side.) India had to vacate from these tops too.

Chinese infrastructure at these regions F8-F4 was built during the conflict. China patrolled upto F4. Viewed in isolation, the situation in North Pangong was never claimed to be positive for China in the forum. The forum, to this day believes , indeed , China had a bad deal at North Pangong Tso ( viewed in Isolation)

Few video clips are better proof than teenage Satellite analyst in foreign countries. It wasn't just to counter domestic audience but also foreign audience.
India hasn't supplied any counter evidence since that shows the dramatic victory India alleges it had against Chinese by its outnumbered yet brave soldiers.

India was the aggressor and indeed lost patrol rights. Ground video evidence as well as the current situation proves it.

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twineedle said:

Except india was still patrolling up to pp 14 after the June disengagement until winter. And why are you silent about China losing patrolling rights up to finger 2? China patrolled up to finger 2 far more than Indians did to finger 8. Yes, some major Chinese victory, losing patrolling rights and retreating 60 km.

If China didn't want to reach its 1959 claim line, why did it sudenly claim the entire Galwan Valley? Previously the LAC was undisputed there. Even your favorite bloggers Pravin Sawhney and Ajai Shukla have been shouting about the 1959 claim line non stop

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twineedle said:

When did I say India won a complete victory? But most members here are saying this is a Chinese victory. I am simply countering that narrative.

And if patrolling rights is your main arguement, China lost more patrolling rights than India, because China was able to patrol fingers 8-4 and beyond far more than India because of tehir road infrastructure and overall more favorable topography.

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Xsizor said:

No. Before June disengagement, China had constructed a post in the place of Tents by India.
After Disengagement China removed those tents. But India never came into PP14 with the patrols during winter.

Indian patrols, if at all near to near PP14 would be replied by Chinese to PP14. It is upto you to provide evidence that India patrolled upto PP14 and China didn't.

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