Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

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Point no. 8 implies Gogra, Hot Springs, and Depsang are still areas where PLA are occupying. 48 hours from Feb 14th or earlier. Has the Indian MoD issued updates on those? PLA should withdraw from forward positions in those areas as well if India agrees to observe 1959 offer. Staying and not disengaging like on Pangong risks Indian justification in reneging and erodes positive cooperation that has been done for disengagement.
 
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LST

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plawolf said:
It’s pointless trying to have a rational mature discussion with Jai Hind trolls. If the PLA forward deploy and occupy all Chinese claimed land, they go crying to all and sundry about being bullied and victimised; If the PLA pull back per negotiated agreements, they go chest thumping about how China couldn’t occupy its own land.

Never mind that China literally just demonstrated beyond all possible doubt that it can occupy all its claimed territory for as long as it wants and there isn’t a single thing UberPower India can do about it, by staying throughout the winter, and staying in style in solar powered heated modern barracks playing video games and eating hotpot while Indian Jawas sat in thin tents and froze their balls off.

If it could be bothered, China can just sit on its positions for a few years and pass the guazi as they watch the Indian Jawas revolt at the prospect of more time in those awful conditions.

But the primary rationale for China agreeing a mutual pull back and the creation of a buffer zone is because it really doesn’t want to waste time and energy beating back the Indians every few weeks.

The only reason China hasn’t curbstomp India again already is because it really isn’t worth China’s time and effort to do so.

But there is only so much BS China can tolerate, and it absolutely will not stand for India salami slicing escalation to make violence and deaths becoming a regular occurrence on the boarder.

If India think it can sap Chinese will with such petty tricks, they fundamentally misunderstand the Chinese mindset. Such provocations will absolutely lead to another 62, which is why China agreed to disengage, as they know India better than it knows itself, and know that poor disciple and nationalist chest thumping by the Indian media and government will filter down to frontline troops making escalated violence and upgraded Chinese responses an almost certainty if both sides remain so closely poised once spring arrives and the Indian Jawas manage to dig themselves out of their snow prisons. India just isn’t worth the Chinese bullets.
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Well said!
 
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lgnxz

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Sardaukar20 said:
I don't mind watching some banter and debate on this thread. But seriously, this "finger & lines" debate show with @twineedle is getting boring. We had like, I don't know how many pages of back and forth between @twineedle and multiple members.

It always works like this: @twineedle puts some outdated maps, unverified maps, and some third party tweets. Says that China has conceded more than India, so India won! Yay! Other members respond with their own arguments and evidence. @twineedle ignores them and posts the same things over and over again. This is actually one type of trolling. Unlike typical trolls, @twineedle makes some personal arguments here and there. But his overall MO is to flood this thread with his garbage.

@twineedle. Contrary to what you think. I would still like to have you around in this thread. You are not the typical insulting Indian troll. We could use a little banter and some conflicting views from the Indian side. SDF has values. As long as it is not trolling, racist, or insulting. Your Anti-China views are tolerated here. So I would urge you to agree to disagree with the other members in this forum, celebrate your Indian victory, and move on. Now. Otherwise, I'm gonna accuse you of actually trolling this forum.

The Ladakh Flashpoint thread indeed has much politics and banter going on in it. But I have still picked up much valuable news and information from this thread about the Ladakh standoff. Some of them for months before international news confirmed them. It's a pity that some of the news and fun facts are being drowned out by the @twineedle "finger & lines" debate show.
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It's always been like that. I even use the maps from his own source to crosscheck it into the recent video that PLA released, showing how his sources actually backfired against him and instead corroborated the narrative from the Chinese side.

Instead of addressing his mistakes and admit that he's losing his argument, this guy will just keep gish galloping into another long drawn-out topics with map and link dumps and give the silent treatment to his losing argument, thinking that by ignoring them he'd still keep his face and other members watching the thread would not notice and won't consider him a complete indiot. This is what he considers to be as 'winning' the discussion, which makes sense since he seems to completely lack self-awareness or feeling of shame.
 
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twineedle

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Xsizor said:
This was reported in Indian news.
Hope they aren't Anti-Modi party and a "verified" and "certified" source.

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Situated at a distance of about 24 km opposite India’s highest airstrip Daulet Beg Oldie (DBO) in Ladakh, PLA’s Tianwendian post is an all-season post in Aksai Chin.

The post was established after the 1962 war and has seen consistent upgrades over the past few years.

The latest imagery suggests that its main building has seen
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since August 2020.


Indian patrols have been blocked here by PLA in the Y junction area as the Chinese have intruded 18 km inside since 2013.

Regular patrols to patrol points 10,11, 11A, 12 and 13 have been blocked due to the impasse.
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Daulet Beg Oldi is 10 km from the LAC. Those positions are 24 km from DBO. You do the math as to where thatt puts Chinese positions relative to the lac.
 
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twineedle

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ougoah said:
View attachment 69401

Point no. 8 implies Gogra, Hot Springs, and Depsang are still areas where PLA are occupying. 48 hours from Feb 14th or earlier. Has the Indian MoD issued updates on those? PLA should withdraw from forward positions in those areas as well if India agrees to observe 1959 offer. Staying and not disengaging like on Pangong risks Indian justification in reneging and erodes positive cooperation that has been done for disengagement.
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There can be problems even if PLA is not occupying Indian territory. As stated in the article I posted earlier, China recently set up artillerly positions very close to the LAC, with India responding. Obviously, those new positions by both sides on OPPOSITE ends of the LAC would be pulled back mutually in disengagement. That is what talks are about on Gogra and Hot Springs. I have already posted clear and updated images of every indian and Chinese position in the area, as well as Chinese claims.
 
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twineedle

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Sardaukar20 said:
I agree with interacting with some members. That's why I don't mind having @twineedle and @Kakyan lurking around this forum. We have learned quite abit about the Indian POV, Indian party line, and the psyche of the Jai Hinds from these guys.

Off course we need to correct the lies from these trolls. But there comes a time where it starts to become counter-productive. It is always more efficient for the trolls to repost the same lies over and over again than for the more learned people to counter their lies. That's why trolls are banned in forums and comment sections.

That being said. I had always believed that China had won the Ladakh standoff with India. China had not gotten every inch of its territory back, but its still a significant milestone. Still, China is not gloating over India with this victory. Imagine what India would do if the roles were reversed. That's the difference of the maturity of these two countries. One run is by men, the other, by boys.
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Well I guess we will ahve to agree to disagree then. BTW, I never said this is a COMPLETE victory for India. I think that both sides did gain from this deal, though I think India got a better deal. However, so many members here are trying to present this as a Chinese victory, which is not the case for reasons previously discussed. But I guess that is the purpose of agreeing to disagree.
 
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twineedle

Junior Member
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lgnxz said:
It's always been like that. I even use the maps from his own source to crosscheck it into the recent video that PLA released, showing how his sources actually backfired against him and instead corroborated the narrative from the Chinese side.

Instead of addressing his mistakes and admit that he's losing his argument, this guy will just keep gish galloping into another long drawn-out topics with map and link dumps and give the silent treatment to his losing argument, thinking that by ignoring them he'd still keep his face and other members watching the thread would not notice and won't consider him a complete indiot. This is what he considers to be as 'winning' the discussion, which makes sense since he seems to completely lack self-awareness or feeling of shame.
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Show do you have sources to show that

1. China did not pull back over 60 km?
2. China captured territory India previously controlled?

Those were the points I was addressing. I do not care about the Chinese narrative that India is the agressor, as that does not matter at this point. Nathan Ruser had analyzed the the clash area and determined that it began with China building tents about 50 km past the lac, though you will argue that Ruser is biased since he is Australian and that the LAC on google is wrong. So no point in arguing that. Now do you have anything to address my first two points, which I have been arguing against?
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
twineedle said:
Well I guess we will ahve to agree to disagree then. BTW, I never said this is a COMPLETE victory for India. I think that both sides did gain from this deal, though I think India got a better deal. However, so many members here are trying to present this as a Chinese victory, which is not the case for reasons previously discussed. But I guess that is the purpose of agreeing to disagree.
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Ok, I guess we can try to twist this to suit your claims.

Let's see... India did get a better deal in the sense that it averted another total 1962 beatdown. For the weaker side, avoiding a real war is the best deal. As for China, I guess there is no victory because even if you beat down a hobo, you still dirtied your expensive suit and have earned nothing to brag about.
 
Xizor

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
twineedle said:
Well I guess we will ahve to agree to disagree then. BTW, I never said this is a COMPLETE victory for India. I think that both sides did gain from this deal, though I think India got a better deal. However, so many members here are trying to present this as a Chinese victory, which is not the case for reasons previously discussed. But I guess that is the purpose of agreeing to disagree.
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You are trying to present this as an Indian Victory. Somehow, in your world, India not being able to patrol its own traditional patrol points is an Indian Victory.
You never picked up the Hot Springs and Gogra affair ? What happened ? Just like you never pick up so many of other posts after their rebuttal.
twineedle said:
Daulet Beg Oldi is 10 km from the LAC. Those positions are 24 km from DBO. You do the math as to where thatt puts Chinese positions relative to the lac.
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Those positions are in Depsang which can act as a launch pad to cut of DBO. My math says China might not be interested in giving up Depsang anytime soon.
twineedle said:
Show do you have sources to show that

1. China did not pull back over 60 km?
2. China captured territory India previously controlled?

Those were the points I was addressing.
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Do you have sources to show India did not do a mirror pull back in Kailash and South Pangong Tso ? Why has India lost and retreated from Kailash range?
Do you have sources to show that India can patrol beyond PP17A and PP15 like in the past ?
Do you have sources showing that India never patrolled past point 2 upto Point8 in North Panging Tso ?

Besides these -

Do you have sources showing China is the aggressor ( in the context China has shown ground video of India being one) ?
Do you have sources showing 2*x+n soldiers of China being killed ? Any images of those numerous dead chinese soldiers ?



Nathan Ruser wasn't alone in asserting China was the aggressor. All those assertions fell through when China released the videos of Chinese soldiers scuffle with Indian ones in PP14. It's upto you to ask Nathan Ruser, your master perhaps, to analyse and discredit the video. Was Nathan Ruser at the ground where he led India confront Chinese?
 
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