Ladakh Flash Point

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reservior dogs

Junior Member
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That’s because it was always about internal politics to start with.

The Indian government never wanted a fight with China, because they know full well they would loose, and loose horrifically.

They just drank the western Kool Aid and thought China was absolutely destroyed by Covid, so thought they could kick China while it’s down and take advantage so they can brag to their domestic audience about how mega power India is that it can take Chinese lands and China is too afraid to do anything about it.

They knew they fucked up as soon as they saw the scale and speed of the PLA mobilisation and was trying to back down without loosing too much face when that idiot officer who watched too much Bollywood BS thought he would take matters into his own hands and lad a kamikaze charge against the PLA, who beat the Indians so badly they literally killed themselves from fleeing so hard.

That forced India to double down and remain engaged rather than withdraw like they planned (hence the emergency winter clothing whip around with western powers, and future tech chimney stoves), but in reality it was all for show.

China OTOH decided to make it a teachable moment and physically moved in to occupy all of its claimed territory and the mighty Indian military did nothing other than complain. The lesson is that we can be civilised and try to negotiate a settlement, but if you are going to behave like a spoilt child, you will be treated as such and have your toys taken away.

Strategically speaking, I think if India is moronic enough to push China into a war, China will pursue a punitive war strategy and effectively bleed the IAF down to the bone while obliterating key Indian defence related factories and munitions dumps.

The goal is to probably teach a lesson beyond what was done in 1962 and effectively make the IAF extinct while obliterating as much of the IA’s cream forces and equipment as possible such that Pakistan can pretty much just walk in afterwards and take all of Kashmir by themselves.

China will want to avoid being engaged at the same time as Pakistan to maximise Indian humiliation by not giving them even the fig leaf of being ganged up on to hide behind; and also to allow China and Pakistan to pursue their own respective strategic objectives without needed to consider the needs and wants of the other (China will be keen to not take any territory behind what it has always claimed to make it clear it’s war is not one of territorial expansionism, while Pakistan would be keen to liberate Kashmir, fighting together means one or both sides needs to sacrifice their own core objectives, while fighting concurrently means both can achieve all their key objectives without needing to compromise).
Yes, the Indian government behaved foolishly, but the Chinese government must try to balance its interests and not push India to the arms of the West. The goal should not be to publicly humiliate them or to take out their force so Pakistan will get back Kashmir. That would push them into the West camp. The goal is to ensure that the Indian military and politicians know privately that their acts will be futile and retreat and de-escalate on their own. India can either take the humiliation of retreating now or be dragged into the quaqmire of a never ending resource drain. It seams the politicians are now choosing the latter now. At some point, the political situation may change and allow them to back down.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Yes, the Indian government behaved foolishly, but the Chinese government must try to balance its interests and not push India to the arms of the West. The goal should not be to publicly humiliate them or to take out their force so Pakistan will get back Kashmir. That would push them into the West camp. The goal is to ensure that the Indian military and politicians know privately that their acts will be futile and retreat and de-escalate on their own. India can either take the humiliation of retreating now or be dragged into the quaqmire of a never ending resource drain. It seams the politicians are now choosing the latter now. At some point, the political situation may change and allow them to back down.

Yes, that’s the goal China is currently pursuing. My point is based on the caveat that India continues to not take the hint and/or does something monumentally stupid enough to push China to open conflict.

If there is another war between India and China, it is pretty much a given that India will dive headfirst into the embrace of the west to oppose China, in which case it would be better for China to hit them so hard that they loose all appetite for further conflict, and/or remove their capacity to join in with the West to start with.

China never goes to war lightly, but once it goes, it goes all in.

With the massive and ongoing farm protests in India, there is elevated risk that Modi would once again turn to his go-to option of using his military against foreign powers as a means of scoring political points domestically and diverting the attention of the masses from his own incompetence.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes, that’s the goal China is currently pursuing. My point is based on the caveat that India continues to not take the hint and/or does something monumentally stupid enough to push China to open conflict.

If there is another war between India and China, it is pretty much a given that India will dive headfirst into the embrace of the west to oppose China, in which case it would be better for China to hit them so hard that they loose all appetite for further conflict, and/or remove their capacity to join in with the West to start with.

China never goes to war lightly, but once it goes, it goes all in.

With the massive and ongoing farm protests in India, there is elevated risk that Modi would once again turn to his go-to option of using his military against foreign powers as a means of scoring political points domestically and diverting the attention of the masses from his own incompetence.
Yes, after the last few months, the Indian government and military is not stupid enough to really take on the PLA. As they have done with Pakistan, their military action had been about generating some news for internal consumption. I am pretty sure during the so call military talks that yielded nothing, the PLA spelled out in no uncertain terms where the red lines are. The whole thing is a Bollywood dance.
 

weig2000

Captain
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Yes India. Please spend more on your military. Your country really needs it.
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The poor are doing just fine.
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The country's infrastructures needs no improvements. They are already world class. China would be so jealous.
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If some poor citizens have a problem and rise up in anger. They are enemies, not Indians. So, the Indian police must "Defend India" from them.
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Nothing is more important for India than buying more military toys like the $240bil/plane Rafales. Its always better for India to overpay for military toys than to spend some money to help the 'ungrateful poor'. Jai Hind!

China's grand India strategy at work. Think about it: with a falling economy about one sixth of that of China, under the duress of pandemic and internal unrest, India is spending about half of China's defense spending. What's worse/better, the majority of the spending is on salary and personnel, and the increased spending is mostly on foreign armament acquisition. These is no net benefit, in fact, they're net negative, to the indigenous defense industry or Indian economy at large, since they take away the funding from other more urgent and productive needs.

To quote the cliché from the Art of War: To win a war without fighting it is the best strategy.

China will want to avoid being engaged at the same time as Pakistan to maximise Indian humiliation by not giving them even the fig leaf of being ganged up on to hide behind; and also to allow China and Pakistan to pursue their own respective strategic objectives without needed to consider the needs and wants of the other (China will be keen to not take any territory behind what it has always claimed to make it clear it’s war is not one of territorial expansionism, while Pakistan would be keen to liberate Kashmir, fighting together means one or both sides needs to sacrifice their own core objectives, while fighting concurrently means both can achieve all their key objectives without needing to compromise).

One probable escalation to deal with further India belligerence, in addition to further enhancement of infrastructure at the India borders and reinforcement and improvement of PLA forces deployed for Indian contingency, is to provide Pakistan army & air force with relatively large scale modern weapons and equipment at friendly price.

India loves to brag about their capability to launch two-front war. Give them some taste of what it would feel like.

Yes, the Indian government behaved foolishly, but the Chinese government must try to balance its interests and not push India to the arms of the West. The goal should not be to publicly humiliate them or to take out their force so Pakistan will get back Kashmir. That would push them into the West camp. The goal is to ensure that the Indian military and politicians know privately that their acts will be futile and retreat and de-escalate on their own. India can either take the humiliation of retreating now or be dragged into the quaqmire of a never ending resource drain. It seams the politicians are now choosing the latter now. At some point, the political situation may change and allow them to back down.

Since India has not gone over the red lines to actually initiate military actions, it's in China's best interest to not push it into the arms of Uncle Sam. It has been India's intent right from the beginning to leverage the US-China tension. It obviously did not work and is increasingly backfiring. They are
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now. It should be given some time and room to make adjustments. It's in India's national interest to adjust their China policy in the last two years.
 

steel21

Junior Member
Registered Member
China's grand India strategy at work. Think about it: with a falling economy about one sixth of that of China, under the duress of pandemic and internal unrest, India is spending about half of China's defense spending. What's worse/better, the majority of the spending is on salary and personnel, and the increased spending is mostly on foreign armament acquisition. These is no net benefit, in fact, they're net negative, to the indigenous defense industry or Indian economy at large, since they take away the funding from other more urgent and productive needs.

To quote the cliché from the Art of War: To win a war without fighting it is the best strategy.



One probable escalation to deal with further India belligerence, in addition to further enhancement of infrastructure at the India borders and reinforcement and improvement of PLA forces deployed for Indian contingency, is to provide Pakistan army & air force with relatively large scale modern weapons and equipment at friendly price.

India loves to brag about their capability to launch two-front war. Give them some taste of what it would feel like.



Since India has not gone over the red lines to actually initiate military actions, it's in China's best interest to not push it into the arms of Uncle Sam. It has been India's intent right from the beginning to leverage the US-China tension. It obviously did not work and is increasingly backfiring. They are
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now. It should be given some time and room to make adjustments. It's in India's national interest to adjust their China policy in the last two years.
Indeed, India is in deep doodoo with its agricultural an service sectors up in smoke, but not yet an inferno.

The best policy is to let India wade in on its own sludge and collapse under the weight of its outsized military acquisition and pension liabilities.

It is quite apparent that based on the recent farmer's revolt that India is incapable of adopting transformative policies to make any kind of progress in catching up with China.

From what I read, India intends on spending it way out of the down turn. That might work, but it could also spark additional corruption and volatility, as well as higher foreign debt.

If I was China, I would apply superficial level of pressure. Some troops here, some infrastructure there, a bit couple of CVN everywhere and watch as India posture itself to poverty.

Sit back for like 5 years, wait until China is the world's largest economy, and US is suffering from strategic restraint/contraction
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, and check back on India in 2028 and see if they are amenable to some policy moderations.
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I think this Hindu populist movement that Modi initiated will out last him, and although it might puff up India in the short term, is hugely detrimental to India in the long term.
 

Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder how the pro-government Indians are going to reconcile with the west’s meddling should/when it finally comes... now that their good friends’ citizens have started the hashtags, emo campaigns and messages... the western governments and politicians, especially the US democrats, who have been so gung ho about the police violence in Russia, can only feign ignorance for so long before being called out...

While I don’t hold any hopes, since India is a democracy beating and killing their citizens is completely fine as exemplified by the almighty US. I can only wonder what would happen should the word sanctions be thrown around... and can only imagine the minds of Modi, BJP, RSS and their supporters blowing up if an actual sanctions are applied, and that would be even funnier just imagining what state the foreign supplier dependent Indian military would be in... and finally just to top all that off, what would happen if the only country, apart from Russia and maybe Iran, with the balls to continue doing business with India was China of all places... honestly if all of the above happen, I don’t think my sides can take the laughing fit I will have...

Ps just in case... I called it here first!
 
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