Why not turn a massive islamic jihad against Jai Hind, like what Bzezinski did with the soviets in A-stan? There's more cause for grievance with what the Jai Hinds are doing than anything the soviets ever did.
Ladakh Flash Point
- Thread starter Mt1701d
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... I think you need medication. There are so many crazy claims in your long rants again that I don't even know where to start... But let's just take the funniest example which you can check with your own eye balls:
Did you even bother to look at a terrain map of Israel before you came to this conclusion? What is that along the North and Northeast? Are those mountains and hills? How about the West? Is that the Mediterranean? Or how about the South? See that long stretch of the Sinai (currently a DMZ)? These are all the definition of "natural barriers" i.e. buffers, which you claim don't exist. In fact, I read a paper in a US think tank some years ago, which said that the only hope Israel has is its geography (and even that is a fleeting hope, that will not protect it forever.)
Israel sits at the nexus point of the lines of communications between the surrounding region. It blocks our Northern flank from connecting with the Southern Flank. This is the reason why this strategic real-estate has been so important for the West for a thousand years. Whoever controls this location has a huge advantage on land and at sea. And it is very defendable terrain. This is why it is so hard to dislodge anyone from this area once they get control of it. It took centuries to kick out the crusaders once they got a foothold. And this should be clear to anyone who simply opens their eyes and takes a look at this terrain (or reads a bit of history).
This issue prevails in practically 95% of all your rants. They have about 5% fact, while the rest of the 95% is just all the wrong conclusions.
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That sort of shite is CIA modus operandi, it's a terrible idea because eventually blowback always comes back to haunt you. I'll much rather China not go down that path, particularly not with jihadists.
Unless dyslexia is spreading as a pandemic and as one affected, would request you to do a comparison between the Himalayas as natural barriers and the Golan Heights.
For your education in History ;
India has always faced an invasion from the West, once the Khyber Pass or Baluch frontier was breached.
Apart from the PLA no army not even the Mongols who overran Xinjiang were ever able to cross the Himalayas.
To point out the obvious:
India ( old India) has existed for several millennia before the seven odd decade history of Israel. The Crusaders succeeded ( temporarily) precisely because of the way the "Powers that be" operate today undermining the adversaries through an excellent espionage network fostering subterfuge and regime control or change. When the Ottoman Turks developed a better espionage system they kicked the Crusaders out and controlled the region for 600 years.
Would request you to focus on the topic how US arms infusions into India on the pretext of countering China further affects an already skewed India-Pakistan arms balance
Would be interested to know your views.
... your claim being that unless something is as high as Mount Everest, it is incapable of being a natural barrier? Remember, you said "no natural barriers" so don't shift the goal posts now. And maybe go ask the IDF if it agrees with your assessment.
Again, with your tendency to lecture me on my own history and to do it in such a poorly informed manner. And again, in order to defend yourself, you throw out a random fact that has no bearing on anything. Let me remind you that you were criticized for making the following claim: "India has chosen to tactically lose or pretend to lose territory...." Nothing you have replied with has helped you defend this claim. What you're doing now is hoping I get distracted.
Oh... so now you're interested in asking questions and investigating an issue? Maybe you should have started with that, instead of first making a wild claim like India "chose" to lose, just to get more arms from the US (and many other wild claims.) Perhaps then we could've actually had a productive discussion, instead of wasting time. Hopefully, in the future, you don't repeat this mistake and maybe then we will actually discuss such issues productively.
Guns and modern weapons are not needed to defeat India. The rods and sticks of the brave Chinese soldiers are enough for the Indian army
On History again;
No natural barriers prevented the changing of control of Jerusalem several times which is what the Crusades were all about. The Crusaders at the best of times only controlled the important routes, cities,and ports while much of the terrain enabled cross country attacks from adversaries.
The Himalayas are a formidable natural boundary. There is no such obstacle anywhere in the world. I will qualify my statement that India always faced an invasion from the West. There was one instance in World War 2 when Japan attacked from the East.
But even the Japanese invaded India from the South East via Burma across the foot hills. Apart from the 1962 Sino Indian conflict and World War 2 all of India's wars have been on its Western or North Western frontier.
Back to the topic:
India has chosen to " lose" territory for a bigger strategic game. India is not going to attempt any military action to recover the 1000 sq. kms recently taken or the 38,000 sq.kms it has already lost. It has no military capabilities to do so. But what it can do and is doing is to use this narrative to build an alliance with an influx of massive military hardware and lucrative trade deals. India is realistic enough to know that even with all the aid the West will give it will still never match China. It's targets ( and perhaps the target of the "Powers that be" ) is different. India is looking towards Pakistan that is of course if Western pressures or a regime change can denuclearize Pakistan like Ukraine or Kazakhstan. Meanwhile the bonus is an overwhelming conventional military capabilities build up,
India would happily forego the cold windy rocks of Ladakh for the boulevards and parks of Lahore. A far more achievable objective.
China is not worried at all. India has no capabilities or intent to affect any changes on the ground, posturing and semantics notwithstanding.
In the bigger scheme of things India's China posturing is only to obtain a massive infusion of military hardware and technology from the West ( specifically France and the USA). As mentioned in my previous posts India will never match China or engage in a conflict. A conflict over territory consisting of ice,rocks, and gravel.
It's actual target is far more attractive and from a strictly military point of view.achievable ; if no nuclear weapons are used.
A war on the western frontier will most likely result in a stalemate with only superficial gains for India. India currently doesn't have the military superiority to impose forbidding costs on Pakistan through all out war. Moreover after CPEC which to me is a masterstroke, destroying Pakistan would be a distant dream. The fact is that Pakistan is not a walkover, sooner it is understood the better it is. Rather than waste scarce resources on war, India should allocate those resources to uplift its masses through education & training.
India loses 300 square km to China after bloody summer in Himalayas, officials say
As troops in the Himalayas hunker down ahead of the brutal winter, the outcome of the worst clashes in decades is becoming clear: China has pushed further into territory once patrolled exclusively by India.
A summer of fighting saw India lose control over about 300 square kilometers (115 square miles) of land along the disputed mountainous terrain, according to Indian officials familiar with the situation. Chinese soldiers now prevent Indian patrols in the area, which is about five times the size of Manhattan.
The last six months have effectively drawn new battle lines across a freezing high-altitude desert, raising tensions to their highest point since India and China fought a war in the area six decades ago. Both armies are now preparing to stand their ground in mostly uninhabited terrain during winter months in which temperatures can drop to 40 degrees below zero.
“We have not seen an expanded winter deployment since the 1962 war,” said Lieutenant General D. S. Hooda, a former Northern Army commander responsible for an area that stretches across the Himalayas to the highest pass between India and China at 18,176 feet (5,540 meters).
“Both countries are digging in,” he said. “It tells us that attitudes are hardening … we could see an extended period of tensions that could have unintended consequences.”
The current “Line of Actual Control” separating the two countries partially adheres to boundaries drawn by the British in 1914 between Tibet and India.
Skirmishes were reported after India granted the Dalai Lama asylum following an uprising against Chinese rule in Tibet in 1959, leading to the war shortly afterward. Five treaties since then have failed to stem periodic clashes.
At stake for both sides is control over strategic outposts like the Karakoram Pass, which runs from India into China’s Xinjiang region. A hold on the ancient Silk Road route could potentially give China easier road access to Pakistan, a long-time ally, opening up trade corridors into Central Asian countries that are key to the success of President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road Initiative.
While India conducted little activity in the border area for years after the war, over the past decade it began building new infrastructure. India recently opened the first of seven tunnels in key parts of the Himalayas to facilitate troop movements, and also completed a 255-kilometer road connecting a major regional city to the Karakoram Pass.
World War II-era landing strips and airfields across the full length of the India-China border were also refurbished.
China’s Foreign Ministry has called India’s infrastructure drive the “root cause of tensions.” China has tightly controlled any information about troop deployments and casualties, and its state-run media have been restrained in criticizing Indian leaders — allowing space to potentially negotiate a resolution.
India “has been on a building spree under Modi’s watch, which is a red flag for China as it changes the status quo,” said Chen Jinying, a professor at the School of International Relations and Public Affairs at Shanghai International Studies University. “Both sides appear to be very determined and neither side is willing to show any signs of weakness or gesture to back down.”
The current conflict escalated more than a year ago, just weeks after Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Hindu-dominant government scrapped the constitutional guarantees of autonomy in Jammu and Kashmir — India’s only Muslim-majority state.
In September 2019, Chinese and Indian soldiers clashed on the banks of the Pangong Tso, a glacial lake at about 14,000 feet.
By the time the harsh Himalayan winter abated in May of this year, India was surprised to find China’s army had built forward bases, occupied mountaintops and sent thousands of soldiers to prevent Indian patrols.
India realized it had lost control of about 250 square kilometers of land in the Depsang Plains, which holds key roads leading up to the Karakoram Pass, as well as 50 square kilometers of land in the Pangong Tso, Indian officials said.
Modi’s office deferred comment to the Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry, neither of which responded to questions. India’s military didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. China’s Foreign Ministry said it couldn’t comment on information that “has no clear source and cannot be substantiated.”
In the second week of June both sides clashed, leaving 20 Indian and an unknown number of Chinese soldiers dead. As both sides rushed soldiers and reinforcements to the area, border agreements carefully worked out by previous governments fell by the wayside.
On the night of Aug. 29, India surprised China by moving thousands of soldiers onto strategic high ground along a stretch of more than 40 square kilometers on the south bank of Pangong Tso. This allowed them to get a better view of China’s troop movements, and escalated tensions further.
Then on Sept. 7 the two sides fired shots at each other for the first time in four decades, breaking another taboo. Since then, multiple rounds of high-level military and diplomatic talks have failed to defuse the border standoff.
While usually both sides draw down troops during the winter months, this year soldiers holding critical heights are in make-shift shelters — making them vulnerable to the cold. Sourcing water and keeping them warm will be an equally big challenge.
With rivers freezing, by mid-November travel within Ladakh will be easy but snow will block roads to the region. Air-lifts are the only means of transporting troops and supplies in and out. Although China has an infrastructure advantage along the border, the Indian Army hopes Beijing will thin out troops from the area, allowing it to do the same.
A few hundred kilometers southwest of the Karakoram Pass lies the Siachen Glacier — often described as the world’s highest battlefield — where Indian and Pakistani soldiers remain within rifle range of each other. A coordinated move by allies China and Pakistan would make India’s hold of this region tenuous.
Addressing the Bloomberg India Economic Forum 2020, Indian Foreign Minister S. Jaishankar described the the border standoff as serious and said talks were “a work in progress.”
“If the foundations of the relationship are disturbed,” he said, “you can’t be impervious to the fact that it will have consequences.”
As troops in the Himalayas hunker down ahead of the brutal winter, the outcome of the worst clashes in decades is becoming clear: China has pushed further into territory once patrolled exclusively by India.
A summer of fighting saw India lose control over about 300 square kilometers (115 square miles) of land along the disputed mountainous terrain, according to Indian officials familiar with the situation. Chinese soldiers now prevent Indian patrols in the area, which is about five times the size of Manhattan.
The last six months have effectively drawn new battle lines across a freezing high-altitude desert, raising tensions to their highest point since India and China fought a war in the area six decades ago. Both armies are now preparing to stand their ground in mostly uninhabited terrain during winter months in which temperatures can drop to 40 degrees below zero.
“We have not seen an expanded winter deployment since the 1962 war,” said Lieutenant General D. S. Hooda, a former Northern Army commander responsible for an area that stretches across the Himalayas to the highest pass between India and China at 18,176 feet (5,540 meters).
“Both countries are digging in,” he said. “It tells us that attitudes are hardening … we could see an extended period of tensions that could have unintended consequences.”
The current “Line of Actual Control” separating the two countries partially adheres to boundaries drawn by the British in 1914 between Tibet and India.
Skirmishes were reported after India granted the Dalai Lama asylum following an uprising against Chinese rule in Tibet in 1959, leading to the war shortly afterward. Five treaties since then have failed to stem periodic clashes.
At stake for both sides is control over strategic outposts like the Karakoram Pass, which runs from India into China’s Xinjiang region. A hold on the ancient Silk Road route could potentially give China easier road access to Pakistan, a long-time ally, opening up trade corridors into Central Asian countries that are key to the success of President Xi Jinping’s Belt and Road Initiative.
While India conducted little activity in the border area for years after the war, over the past decade it began building new infrastructure. India recently opened the first of seven tunnels in key parts of the Himalayas to facilitate troop movements, and also completed a 255-kilometer road connecting a major regional city to the Karakoram Pass.
World War II-era landing strips and airfields across the full length of the India-China border were also refurbished.
China’s Foreign Ministry has called India’s infrastructure drive the “root cause of tensions.” China has tightly controlled any information about troop deployments and casualties, and its state-run media have been restrained in criticizing Indian leaders — allowing space to potentially negotiate a resolution.
India “has been on a building spree under Modi’s watch, which is a red flag for China as it changes the status quo,” said Chen Jinying, a professor at the School of International Relations and Public Affairs at Shanghai International Studies University. “Both sides appear to be very determined and neither side is willing to show any signs of weakness or gesture to back down.”
The current conflict escalated more than a year ago, just weeks after Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Hindu-dominant government scrapped the constitutional guarantees of autonomy in Jammu and Kashmir — India’s only Muslim-majority state.
In September 2019, Chinese and Indian soldiers clashed on the banks of the Pangong Tso, a glacial lake at about 14,000 feet.
By the time the harsh Himalayan winter abated in May of this year, India was surprised to find China’s army had built forward bases, occupied mountaintops and sent thousands of soldiers to prevent Indian patrols.
India realized it had lost control of about 250 square kilometers of land in the Depsang Plains, which holds key roads leading up to the Karakoram Pass, as well as 50 square kilometers of land in the Pangong Tso, Indian officials said.
Modi’s office deferred comment to the Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry, neither of which responded to questions. India’s military didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. China’s Foreign Ministry said it couldn’t comment on information that “has no clear source and cannot be substantiated.”
In the second week of June both sides clashed, leaving 20 Indian and an unknown number of Chinese soldiers dead. As both sides rushed soldiers and reinforcements to the area, border agreements carefully worked out by previous governments fell by the wayside.
On the night of Aug. 29, India surprised China by moving thousands of soldiers onto strategic high ground along a stretch of more than 40 square kilometers on the south bank of Pangong Tso. This allowed them to get a better view of China’s troop movements, and escalated tensions further.
Then on Sept. 7 the two sides fired shots at each other for the first time in four decades, breaking another taboo. Since then, multiple rounds of high-level military and diplomatic talks have failed to defuse the border standoff.
While usually both sides draw down troops during the winter months, this year soldiers holding critical heights are in make-shift shelters — making them vulnerable to the cold. Sourcing water and keeping them warm will be an equally big challenge.
With rivers freezing, by mid-November travel within Ladakh will be easy but snow will block roads to the region. Air-lifts are the only means of transporting troops and supplies in and out. Although China has an infrastructure advantage along the border, the Indian Army hopes Beijing will thin out troops from the area, allowing it to do the same.
A few hundred kilometers southwest of the Karakoram Pass lies the Siachen Glacier — often described as the world’s highest battlefield — where Indian and Pakistani soldiers remain within rifle range of each other. A coordinated move by allies China and Pakistan would make India’s hold of this region tenuous.
Addressing the Bloomberg India Economic Forum 2020, Indian Foreign Minister S. Jaishankar described the the border standoff as serious and said talks were “a work in progress.”
“If the foundations of the relationship are disturbed,” he said, “you can’t be impervious to the fact that it will have consequences.”
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