Ladakh Flash Point

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
localizer said:
What yall think about this: @HaldilalSDF
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/jis0sw
Click to expand...
If it helps :
A large number of Indian police, paramilitary and industrial and railway security force are equipped with Lee Enfield 0.303 bolt action rifles, 9 mm Sten Mk 1 sub-machine guns, and M1911 .45 Pistols. Go to an Indian bank or mall and the security guards are carrying 12 gauge double or single barrel shotguns, with paper cartridges with bird shot. They carry their ammunition in over the shoulder bandoliers with about 6 rounds. So an assailant can easily count how much ammunition the guard is carrying.
There is also an attempt to "AKfy " the single barrel shotguns by sawing the stock off and putting a fake pistol grip and fake magazine and brazing a fake gas tube on the top. This is to frighten an adversary into thinking the guard is armed with an assault rifle. The latch and the hammer of course are clearly visible.
 
HaldilalSDF

HaldilalSDF

Junior Member
Registered Member
localizer said:
What yall think about this: @HaldilalSDF
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/jis0sw
Click to expand...

Here are the following points.

1 . TAR was initially rejected by IA but some companies in J&K, JKP etc do use it, army uses it in some numbers because probably they didn't have much of a choice.

2 . Caracal deal is not signed so he is wrong there.

3 . Sigs were selected anyway i don't see an issue here.

4 . Ak203 was/is supposed to be go to weapon for regular infantry, it was chosen because of its ability to be easily manageable and soldier's preferring AKs over anything else plus cross-sharing of various components from already present systems

5 . About calibre and logistic just go through IA Modernisation and gun Programme, it's total bloodbath and there people talking about all of these, there's high chance it's will create a logistic nightmare.
 
B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
Bright Sword said:
If it helps :
A large number of Indian police, paramilitary and industrial and railway security force are equipped with Lee Enfield 0.303 bolt action rifles, 9 mm Sten Mk 1 sub-machine guns, and M1911 .45 Pistols. Go to an Indian bank or mall and the security guards are carrying 12 gauge double or single barrel shotguns, with paper cartridges with bird shot. They carry their ammunition in over the shoulder bandoliers with about 6 rounds. So an assailant can easily count how much ammunition the guard is carrying.
There is also an attempt to "AKfy " the single barrel shotguns by sawing the stock off and putting a fake pistol grip and fake magazine and brazing a fake gas tube on the top. This is to frighten an adversary into thinking the guard is armed with an assault rifle. The latch and the hammer of course are clearly visible.
Click to expand...
One of the problems of arming the Indian reserve or paramilitary units with standardized weapons is that on internal security duties they have frequently been ambushed and their weapons seized by Naxalite and separatist insurgents particularly in the North East. Almost the entire arsenal of Naxalites is from captured weapons. Initially large numbers of Lee Enfield rifles were captured from local and railway police armories. India drastically cut down the manufacture of 0.303 ammunition and attempted a limited conversion of Lee Enfields to 7.62 x 51 ammunition, hoping to deprive the insurgents of supplies. It didn't work. The NE insurgents quickly adapted and captured FN-FAL rifles then in use with the army units, that used the 7.62 x 51 rounds. When the army switched to the INSAS rifles the insurgents quickly depleted their 7.62 ammunition stocks. They procured a limited number of Simonov SKS rifles possibly smuggled from Myanmar so
they had access to 7.62 X 39 ammunition. Some INSAS rifles using 5.56 ammunition have been captured too,
 
Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Chintychin said:
Yeah but turkey got suspended from F-35 program no? Why russia won't do something like that here?
Click to expand...
Only Russia, or more specifically, Rosoboronexport can answer this question.

Russia selling the S-400 to Turkey is like China selling HQ-9 to India. The Russian media is trying to play it as if its a smart move to 'pry' Turkey away from the US orbit. What Russian media is not telling is that Erdogan is actively supporting Islamic terrorism in Russia's sphere of influence. From Libya to now in Azerbaijan, right beside Chechnya. The irony of it.

If Russia doesn't mind selling its top SAM to a real geopolitical foe and NATO member. Why should Russia care about selling S-400s to India? India, even if in the Quad, cannot threaten Russia directly like Turkey. I can expect that even if India goes to war with China, and if China doesn't pressure Russia. Russia will continue shipping arms and ammunition to India.
 
W

weig2000

Captain
Bright Sword said:
On sharing guns...
The Indian movie on Ladakh "Haqeeqat" ( Reality) is the ONLY movie made by Bollywood on the Sino-Indian conflict. It depicts a disastrous defeat of an Indian border outpost in Rezang La. A few documentary clips taken by Indian Army cameramen which show advancing PLA troops are fused into the movie.
The movie plays on the canard of "human wave" tactics being used by the PLA to overrun the outpost. This is a popular western concept of communist troops carrying only ammunition, assuming that enough guns can be picked up from the dead during the assault to carry forward the attack. This has also been shown in the movie "Enemy at the Gates" in the backdrop of Stalingrad. Various " pot boilers" on the Korean war also promote this myth.
The fact is that no documentary footage of any conflict post World War 1 has shown "human wave tactics" with shared guns. Human waves were tried out very early in World War 1 with horrendous casualties. No matter what the size of a "human wave " a group of modern machine guns can break any "human wave".
The documentary footage fused into the movie "Haqeeqat " shows advancing PLA troops as dots on the snowy ridge line , too far away for accurate machine gun fire.
The movie also depicted heavy shelling ( documentary footage) before the cameramen retreat and stop filming.
Click to expand...

Incidentally, from Asia Times, the "human wave" myth again. The rest of the article is not that interesting, usual western piece.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Beijing reminds US of Chinese victories ahead of an expected North Korea mutual defense treaty renewal

by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

October 24, 2020
 
Last edited:
M

Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
localizer said:
What yall think about this: @HaldilalSDF
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/jis0sw
Click to expand...
HaldilalSDF said:
Here are the following points.

1 . TAR was initially rejected by IA but some companies in J&K, JKP etc do use it, army uses it in some numbers because probably they didn't have much of a choice.

2 . Caracal deal is not signed so he is wrong there.

3 . Sigs were selected anyway i don't see an issue here.

4 . Ak203 was/is supposed to be go to weapon for regular infantry, it was chosen because of its ability to be easily manageable and soldier's preferring AKs over anything else plus cross-sharing of various components from already present systems

5 . About calibre and logistic just go through IA Modernisation and gun Programme, it's total bloodbath and there people talking about all of these, there's high chance it's will create a logistic nightmare.
Click to expand...

Forget about the TAR or Caracal... the SIG is understandable if the Indian want to standardise on NATO ammo but what I really don’t understand is the AK 203... I don’t mean it in a way about the rifle operation, ease of use etc... what I don’t understand is the caliber... if the Indian wanted an AK 200 series to replace the standard infantry rifle... there is the AK 201 chambered in 5.56 NATO, since the Indians already use the 5.56 NATO for their infantry rifle right now... if someone know whether there is something wrong with the AK 201 then please let me know... also for AK style weapon system... there are also the Finnish valmet, Czech Bren and the Israel Galil Ace... all of which offers 5.56 NATO, there really is no excuse for this ridiculous decision...

@HaldilalSDF as you have said, the Indian small arms logistics is already a bloodbath... this will just make it worst...
 
B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
weig2000 said:
Incidentally, from Asia Times, the "human wave" myth again. The rest of the article is not that interesting, usual western piece.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Beijing reminds US of Chinese victories ahead of an expected North Korea mutual defense treaty renewal

by
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

October 24, 2020
Click to expand...
There is no evidence the PLA used human wave tactics in Ladakh.
That myth was propagated to show the heroism of Indian troops facing overwhelming odds.
The PLA was quite well equipped with Type 56 ( SKS) rifles and possibly PPSh-41 ( not sure). Documentary footage shows a Sten Mk 2 type weapon with a curved magazine, possibly carrying 7.62 X 25 pistol ammunition. The movie Haqeeqat shows close ups of PLA soldiers armed thus but it could be pirated footage from the Korean war documentary.
Incidentally the movie depicts PLA soldiers as lascivious and sadistic on Indian female civilians. The fact that the PLA had female supporting units right on front lines manning communications, nursing etc. was conveniently ignored.
 
Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
HaldilalSDF said:
Here are the following points.

1 . TAR was initially rejected by IA but some companies in J&K, JKP etc do use it, army uses it in some numbers because probably they didn't have much of a choice.

2 . Caracal deal is not signed so he is wrong there.

3 . Sigs were selected anyway i don't see an issue here.

4 . Ak203 was/is supposed to be go to weapon for regular infantry, it was chosen because of its ability to be easily manageable and soldier's preferring AKs over anything else plus cross-sharing of various components from already present systems

5 . About calibre and logistic just go through IA Modernisation and gun Programme, it's total bloodbath and there people talking about all of these, there's high chance it's will create a logistic nightmare.
Click to expand...

There is still one more caliber to add to that messed up list. I wonder how the DRDO's 6.8mm assault rifle development is going. Is it still on the table for future adoption by the Indian military?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Another service rifle caliber to care for the Indian soldier?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top