Ladakh Flash Point

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Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

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jfy1155 said:
Current weather condition at the LAC

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India is generally a hot-climate country. Only the northern region nearest to the Himalayan ranges are areas where Indian troops could experience winter. So India wants to claim that its troops know winter better than Chinese troops? What a joke.

In just simple geography, much of China is situated in the temperate zone. With some areas of Northern China inside truly freezing zones like Heilongjiang. Much of the Chinese people have been living with winters, and snow for thousands of years. Whether in Tibet, Xinjiang, or Heilongjiang, PLA troops have been living and training in the cold for generations. Sure the PLA troops can't match Russian troops in extreme winter hardiness, but they definitely know winter far more than the Indian troops.

India is like a tourist kid from the Tropics camping for the first time in a cold, snowy countryside. Showing off on Instagram how bitter the cold is. Then showing off how macho he is in dealing with the cold: "Look at me, my lips chapped!" "Ouch its so cold, my fingers hurt!" "Look at my awesome winter wear, its expensive you know!" "Look how tough I am! I bet no one else could ever survive in this kinda cold like I do!"
The locals would just look at him and shrug: "Just another dumb tourist."
 
B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
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Sardaukar20 said:
Not gonna happen. Russia is delivering S-400s to Turkey, a belligerent NATO member who openly meddles in Russia's backyard. There was a joke that Russia could even sell S-400s to the US if it can help to warm relations. Russia is interested in the money, not politics. The Quad could declare Russia as enemy #2, and Russia would still deliver the S-400s to India.
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It was once said:
"The capitalists will sell us the very rope we will hang them with"
Which actually proved true for a while:
30s era Depression hit America sold the Christie Suspension M1932 tank design to the Soviet Union, the BT-2 tank which later became the T-34 the US was facing in Korea. Likewise the DC-3 design was bought by the USSR to become the Soviet Lisunov 2 which airlifted supplies to the front in Korea.
Now it appears Russia will do what the USA did in the 1930s.,
 
O

Orthan

Senior Member
Nobonita Barua said:
Any idea folks how this 2+2 marriage ceremony might play out?
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This US-india military cooperation is more informal and political than the cooperation betwen the US and other quad countries. Yes, the cooperation in time may become more institutionalized, but i very much doubt that the india will enter a formal military alliance with the US. The US hasnt shown any willingness to intervene in the himalayan dispute betwen china and india (trump even said he could mediate it) and i dont see them wanting in the future.
 
B

Bright Sword

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siegecrossbow said:
Guns you can share with other soldiers. How do you share clothing?
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On sharing guns...
The Indian movie on Ladakh "Haqeeqat" ( Reality) is the ONLY movie made by Bollywood on the Sino-Indian conflict. It depicts a disastrous defeat of an Indian border outpost in Rezang La. A few documentary clips taken by Indian Army cameramen which show advancing PLA troops are fused into the movie.
The movie plays on the canard of "human wave" tactics being used by the PLA to overrun the outpost. This is a popular western concept of communist troops carrying only ammunition, assuming that enough guns can be picked up from the dead during the assault to carry forward the attack. This has also been shown in the movie "Enemy at the Gates" in the backdrop of Stalingrad. Various " pot boilers" on the Korean war also promote this myth.
The fact is that no documentary footage of any conflict post World War 1 has shown "human wave tactics" with shared guns. Human waves were tried out very early in World War 1 with horrendous casualties. No matter what the size of a "human wave " a group of modern machine guns can break any "human wave".
The documentary footage fused into the movie "Haqeeqat " shows advancing PLA troops as dots on the snowy ridge line , too far away for accurate machine gun fire.
The movie also depicted heavy shelling ( documentary footage) before the cameramen retreat and stop filming.
 
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PiSigma

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Biscuits said:
Uh didn't India make a big deal out of deploying 200k soldiers to the border? So its 1 uniform for every 2 men? What is this, enemy at the gates?
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The Soviets had plenty of jackets for their men, it's guns and ammo (in the movie) that was missing... O ya India got that problem too.
 
D

Deleted member 14819

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Sardaukar20 said:
Not gonna happen. Russia is delivering S-400s to Turkey, a belligerent NATO member who openly meddles in Russia's backyard. There was a joke that Russia could even sell S-400s to the US if it can help to warm relations. Russia is interested in the money, not politics. The Quad could declare Russia as enemy #2, and Russia would still deliver the S-400s to India.
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Yeah but turkey got suspended from F-35 program no? Why russia won't do something like that here?
 
localizer

localizer

Colonel
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What yall think about this: @HaldilalSDF
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/jis0sw
I had posted previously about this topic but now there is more news. To begin with, a lot of Indians don't understand bullet calibers. To get it out of the way, bullets are not interchangeable. A bullet of 7.62 * 39 calibre cannot be fired from a rifle that shoots 7.62 * 51 and vice versa. I hope everyone understands that.

So here's the problem. The Indian military it seems will be using 3 calibers of bullets for their battle rifles. Which makes no sense at all. I can understand if the rifles have separate roles, but they will all be standard infantry rifles.

The Indian military in order to replace its ageing and useless indigenous rifles have chosen 4 rifles, seemingly without coordination. These rifles are-

  1. Trichi Assault Rifle (TAR). Fires a 7.62 * 39 bullet. It's made indigenously by the Ordinance Factory Board. This seems to be nothing more than a copy of an AK-47 with minor improvements. Everything about it screams like an attempt by the OFB to stave off it's shuttering.
  2. AK - 203. Fires a 7.62 * 39 bullet. This is a joint effort by Russia and India to be manufactured at Amethi. Making a new rifle is an expensive affair and this rifle is more expensive than actually just buying one from a private company. I have doubts on whether it will actually succeed. It's been delayed numerous times.
  3. Sig 716. Fires a 7.62 * 51 or 7.62 NATO calibre bullet. This is made by American/German company Sig Sauer. It's a heavier calibre bullet. India ordered 180,000 + of this rifles and it has been distributed to soldiers already.
  4. Caracal CAR 816. Fires a 5.56 * 45 or 5.56 NATO round. This rifle is very well made and is widely praised. A lot of Middle Eastern countries have adopted it. India ordered 80k+ of this rifle that will be delivered soon. But because of "Make in India" initiative, any extra orders are scrapped. Caracal has offered to manufacture in india. It is yet to be seen what will happen.
The bullets and their differences.

  1. 5.56 NATO. This is the standard infantry rifle bullet used by NATO. It's light and has a higher velocity and accuracy upto 500 yards. It's proven effective since the 60's. It's widely available and is already the standard calibre for indian military.
  2. 7.62 NATO. This is a larger caliber bullet. It was the standard for Europe and even India prior to the INSAS. It's much heavier but has a longer range. It's accurate upto 1000 yards. The drawback is that because it's bigger, soldiers can carry fewer amounts of ammo. In the Falkland wars, British troops experienced ammo shortages in battle as a result. Thus they switched over to the 5.56 NATO round. Nowadays, it's used mostly as a sniper/marksman/machine gun bullet. Or for police.
  3. 7.62 * 39. This is the bullet of the Soviets and Communist countries. It's been used since the 50's. It works similar to the 5.56 NATO interms of range. 500 yards. But it's heavier. So the same disadvantage of the 7.62NATO. Russia is switching over to a smaller caliber as a result. Which raises the question, why is india buying guns of this calibre? This is effectively an obsolete caliber. It's makes no sense.
India needs to modernize it's military. But there seems to be no sense or plan on how it plans to do that. The US and most of NATO and allies use the 5.56 NATO. It works. We already have stockpiles of 5.56 NATO ready.

A team of soldiers in the field must have standard ammunition. It helps to make sure that soldiers can exchange bullets when they run out during battle. Some differences can exist, snipers and machine gunners need heavier calibers but the infantry rifleman should be armed with the same calibre of bullets. This doesn't seem to be happening. Different factions seems to be fighting within procurement department of the military.

It's going to be a Bofors-like cluster fuck. No one is raising any objections or questions about this. Not the opposition. Not the media. No one.
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7.62x51 - prior NATO Battle Rifle calibre (FN-FAL / G3 / AR 10 / Ishapore L1A1 which is an FN-FAL variant) usually semi-auto but with full auto variants for special use cases. projectile dia : 7.62 mm Case length : 51 mm

5.56x45 - current NATO Assault Rifle calibre (M16 and variants) full-auto Projectile dia : 5.56 mm Case length : 45 mm

7.62x39 - prior Warsaw Pact Battle Rifle calibre (AK 47/AK M/AK 74 / AK 15 ) full-auto Projectile dia : 7.62 mm Case length : 39 mm

5.45x39 - WP Assault Rifle calibre ( AK 12/ AK 100 series and variants) full-auto45 Projectile dia : 5.45 mm Case length : 39 mm

IA moved from the Ishapore L1A1 7.62 NATO to INSAS 5.56 NATO and now wants to switch again to 7.62x39 WP calibre. I really don't understand what what they're doing?

They discarded the 7.62 NATO calibre for the 5.56 NATO calibre and now are switching some divisions to 7.62 WP and some divisions to 5.56 NATO. What is happening? Why create separate and complicated logistics chains with 2 different types of standard ammo?

China has standardised on 5.8x42 for their entire military. Pakistan is still sticking to their 7.62 NATO G3's. While we have spent crores to move from 7.62 NATO to 5.56 NATO and now to a mix of NATO/WP calibres. 4 different calibres over a space of 2 decades! What waste and so much confusion in times of war.

China decided the 5.45 and 5.56 weren't good enough for it and chose a near intermediate 5.8 calibre for itself. It had the discipline to make a choice and stick to it. The Army needs to make up it's mind. It's not the babus who decide on calibres, it's the Army, and they can't make up their minds.

Sig Sauer or FN or Colt or Caracal or Kalishnikov have a choice of rifles in std NATO/WP calibres. The buyer makes the choice and they will supply it. If the end user (IA) cannot make up their minds, it on them not on the sellers or the babus.
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B

Bright Sword

Junior Member
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PiSigma said:
The Soviets had plenty of jackets for their men, it's guns and ammo (in the movie) that was missing... O ya India got that problem too.
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That is accurate up to a point.
The Soviets lost half a million Mosin- Nagant rifles ( 7.62 X 54) between 1941-1942 including most of the factories making the parts and ammunition located in Ukraine.
The rifle shortage was temporary. The Soviets simplified their Mosin Nagant production and also partially switched to mass produced PPSh-41s .( 6 million made) and PPS-43s
 
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