Ladakh Flash Point

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Gatekeeper

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Yes I'm aware of that. But I was playing him along by keeping to his overly optimistic forecast of out growing China by 3% as per his post. And even using his overly optimistic forecast, it'll take India approx 25 years to catch up with China's. And that's barring no further economic shocks. But I reckon at an optimistic 2%. It'll takes 40 years. Bit as speak, India's growth rate is already lower than China's this year! So much for their dream of superpower status!

Typo. I meant it'll take 25 years to double in size at 3% which will take at least 40 years to overtake China? Since China is 4 times as big.
 

Bright Sword

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India giving up all of Kashmir? : )
Who knows. All theoretical and as Shekhar Gupta days "smoking opium". Will only happen in a 1000 years.
But the exchange could be possibly the valley with Hindu majority Jammu and Ladakh remaining in India. Also geared to some other exchange such as in Sindh where there are Hindu majority areas.
Israel did a deal with Egypt but retained Gaza and got a one front solution.
 

Mohsin77

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Wonderful analysis Mohsin !
Here is a question for you which I believe you are in a unique position to answer.
A tiny minority of secular but nationalist Indian academics, retired defense personnel, diplomats, journalists and left wing politicians are advocating the following path to get India out of a difficult two front war scenario.
1. Basically they are advocating the Israeli pattern when Israel struck a deal with Egypt ( Sadat, Rabin, Shimon Peres) returning Sinai for peace, effectively making Israel safer to fight on a single front in Syria, West Bank, and Lebanon. The Camp David accord was brokered by the USA ( Henry Kissinger) and deftly managed by the charismatic Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres.
2. Similar to the Camp David accord the Indian plan (supported by Gulf countries and the USA) proposes to split Pakistan away from China by offering a deal on Kashmir in exchange for Pakistan reneging on the CPEC thus isolating China.
3.The argument the proponents of this plan make is that China being in a dominant position is not interested in any compromises with India. The diplomatic axiom is that peace happens between a weaker ( or defeated) nation and a stronger nation so it is Pakistan that India must address to strike a deal and then concentrate on a single front ( political, diplomatic, military) to isolate China. The current Pakistan government as well as opposition is very likely to accept the outreach ( or so it is assumed)
4. There are harsh realities however , because the political capital the ruling party has built up in India is based exclusively on an anti-Indian Muslim, Muslim, and anti-Pakistani agenda which is now deeply embedded in the manipulated mindset of the majority Indian population. An outreach to Pakistan even if prudent would be unacceptable to the party ideologues who dream of Indian tanks rolling up the steps of the Faisal mosque in Islamabad. The Prime Minister himself is so extremely anti-Muslim (having overseen a pogrom while in the office of Chief Minister ) that practical and prudent as he is any such option is ruled out. The internal fascist environment so carefully built up over decades cannot be compromised. In view of the RSS which is the supreme ideological boss in India today both China and Pakistan must be fought.
Pakistan being weaker must be destroyed first and then China can be dealt with suitably.

A purely theoretical Question:
Would Pakistan accept a peace deal on Kashmir in exchange for break or downgrade of relations with China?

Regarding your question: "Would Pakistan accept a peace deal on Kashmir in exchange for break or downgrade of relations with China?"

No. This is a similar proposition to what Pakistan was offered by US/Clinton, when he tried to stop us from going nuclear. Clinton offered Pakistan all sorts of toys and money if we did not follow India into the nuclear club. We refused. Why? Because you cannot trust such offers and rely on their guarantees, in general, let alone on such strategic imperatives. Why should Pakistan abandon China which has been such a reliable strategic partner? If anyone tries to get us to do this, that actor's own motivations are immediately suspect. And the historical evidence (of the nuclear test drama) shows that Pakistan would reject any such proposition.

p.s. I'll try and come back to the rest of the points in your post later, but I'm really busy with work today.
 

[witty username]

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Who knows. All theoretical and as Shekhar Gupta days "smoking opium". Will only happen in a 1000 years.
But the exchange could be possibly the valley with Hindu majority Jammu and Ladakh remaining in India. Also geared to some other exchange such as in Sindh where there are Hindu majority areas.
Israel did a deal with Egypt but retained Gaza and got a one front solution.

From a
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taken some years ago by Chatham House. Although political and economic developments since then will have changed the mood in the region, I still think this survey is of great use.

There is a clear split in sentiments, I think the best solution would be for India and Pakistan to partition Kashmir along communal lines.
 

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Bright Sword

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From a
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taken some years ago by Chatham House. Although political and economic developments since then will have changed the mood in the region, I still think this survey is of great use.

There is a clear split in sentiments, I think the best solution would be for India and Pakistan to partition Kashmir along communal lines.
If India succeeds in changing the demographics ( again another Israeli option) partition would be ruled out, Then Pakistan would have to hang on to a rump Azad Kashmir and get even less of a deal if there is any. Meanwhile the military and economic imbalances between India and Pakistan are likely to grow. Pakistan may have only two choices. A "sink or swim together " alliance with China and confronting India or bending eventually to the inevitable and accepting India's offer ; if at all an offer is made. The "sink or swim together" option has the grave risk of embroiling Pakistan in a Sino-Indian conflict with severe damage to Pakistan. Egypt and Jordan faced exactly this same dilemma in the 70s trying to stay in the Soviet backed Arab alliance but being firmly in the cross hairs of Israel. They chose to make the best of a bad deal. So in theory the Indian secularists ( feeble voices at best) may be correct in assuming that Pakistan may accept whatever India offers; even though India will never offer Pakistan any deal. In this respect India is not Israel.
One important difference between the Soviet Egyptian model and Pakistan is that the Soviet Union was not adjacent Israel and had no territorial stake. The support to the Arabs was purely ideological to keep US influence out of the region. In the Sino Pakistan India triangle China is a big ( or rather the biggest) game player.
 

discspinner

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I don't think China is going to accepting any return to the status quo this time around. From day one in May, the plan was for perpetual deployment at the LAC.
 

Inst

Captain
Wow. So you change the goalposts. What you said I'm not necessary agreeing or disagreeing with. Of course it has got nothing to do with economic size. Otherwise the US would win every single conflict it has got involved with, including Vietnam and Korea.

But the thrust of my reply was in response to your infer assertion with regards to India extra 3% growth that will surpass China's and eventually US to it's destiny as super duper power. And therefore invinciblility of it's position as the world no. 1 superpower.

Judging by your reply. You've obviously been called out on it. And unable to give a reply.

The reason I'm stating that India will outgrow China after the recession is over is because China is now struggling to break out of the middle income trap. 8-10% growth wasn't going to last forever; based on that metric by 2049 China would have a 170,000 USD per capita GDP in 2011 dollars.

The Chinese can do everything right and the Indians everything wrong, but it's just a question of low-hanging fruits. Besides, China is deprioritizing quantity of growth vs quality of growth.

The point being, India and China on the Sino-Indian border is a question of raw strategic potential (China) vs convenience of logistics (India). The raw strategic difference is going to narrow over time; 10 years of 3% (iirc I said 2-3%) growth advantage puts a relative growth of 33%, or 4.5 goes to 3.5 and 3.5 goes to 3.
 

OppositeDay

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The reason I'm stating that India will outgrow China after the recession is over is because China is now struggling to break out of the middle income trap. 8-10% growth wasn't going to last forever; based on that metric by 2049 China would have a 170,000 USD per capita GDP in 2011 dollars.

The Chinese can do everything right and the Indians everything wrong, but it's just a question of low-hanging fruits. Besides, China is deprioritizing quantity of growth vs quality of growth.

The point being, India and China on the Sino-Indian border is a question of raw strategic potential (China) vs convenience of logistics (India). The raw strategic difference is going to narrow over time; 10 years of 3% (iirc I said 2-3%) growth advantage puts a relative growth of 33%, or 4.5 goes to 3.5 and 3.5 goes to 3.

The GDP per capita breakpoint for middle income country is about $12,500. China was slightly above $10,000 in 2019. With reasonable assumption of a stronger RMB in the future and a 5-6% real growth rate, China will be a high income country in 3 or at most 4 years, even if we also assume the breakpoint will also rise with time. China doesn’t need 8-10% growth to break out of the middle income trap.
 

Sardaukar20

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I don't think China is going to accepting any return to the status quo this time around. From day one in May, the plan was for perpetual deployment at the LAC.

Regarding the military disengagement negotiations between India and China. In the article, there is a line saying that:

According to Indian media reports, sources from India said New Delhi insisted that the Chinese People's Liberation Army withdraw from all friction points with a timeline, and give "free and unhindered access to Indian forces to all patrol points."

If that is true, how can India call that negotiating? That's a demand for unconditional surrender from China! Did India just "won a war" with China? What are they smoking?

Or maybe its just more fake news propaganda from the Indian media? Since they wanna make India look tough on China. But secretly negotiating for a cowardly exit. Whatever it is, it is making the Chinese side increasingly impatient.
 
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