Ladakh Flash Point

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localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
A year ago, India declared "open defecation free" (ODF)

This year I learned that ODF simply means everyone has a hole in the ground to poop in.

There's ODF+ (toilets with waste collection, basically dalits to clean it up)

Then ODF++ (toilets with sewage system)

1598546608109.png

Shows the extent to which they bullshit themselves.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I agree Chinese soft power and good will has eroded to some extent within a very short span of time in most part of the world due to constant propaganda and some of its own making. But I believe there are vast majority of people out there who do not subscribe to US propaganda blindly and still amaze Chinese roket like rise. Some recent Chinese government action in Xinjiang and Hong kong rightly or wrongly has raise some questions and give fuel to anti China propagandist. I do not want to elaborate those issues here to derail this thread any further and how situation could have handled differently to reach the same goal the Chinese government wanted. But I would say a vast majority of people in the world have a very soft corner for India I do not know why but may be due to its ancient civilization, vast amount of poor people or just a mystic land of far way. A open war with India will cause many people blame China without understanding reasons underlying. I think this is the last thing what China needs right now and for this reason government is trying to down play as much as possible.

They're kind or indifferent to Indians because they are wealthy and Indians are poor plus India is not an industrial or economic threat at all. Indians aren't taking much of the westerner's share of resources nor are they taking any market share from western companies and India is not even close to getting to a position where it can one day compete. The surface story is all about how "aggressive" China is... yeah the same nation that has settled over a dozen border disputes and not become involved in war for nearly 70 years. Contrasted to the angelic US...well you know not a soul hurt by those saints. Freedom something about democracy and ummm human rights etc etc. It's all easy when you're developed, rich, and take the lion's share of global resources, political influence, and talented people.

China is like the junior exec performing really well and gunning for your job as CEO. The board isn't omniscient so you do what sneaky moves you can to throw them off. Meanwhile India is the janitor in the organisation. Would the CEO be mean to the janitor and waste its time regaling the board with stories of its failures and deficiencies?

However, I think you may still be more correct than I am in regards to war. It may actually be costly to China. Certainly will be in the anglo world. Can just imagine the propaganda even if India is the one shooting. I'm of the position that this is a lost cause anyway so it shouldn't weigh in on decision making. The neutral world is larger, more populous, and more full of potential than people believe. They're also more neutral to indifferent (at least when it comes to China and India) than people assume. If China can explain itself effectively enough why there is a war happening with India, I think it'll be enough to offset any negativity. Keep in mind this negativity already exists and is on absolute maximum. There may be enough sane people to actually research it. Certainly political figures not in Anglo nations will do little because they're almost guaranteed to properly investigate it and any self interested group would even favour China over India, especially if China wins the war. People actually respect and have great tolerance for power once it is proven beyond doubt. It's happened to the US who has converted enemies into docile partners. Not that this is a good thing but war here isn't so unidimensional.
 
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Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
I did point out in an earlier post that I expect the PLA to battle test as much of their new capabilities as possible if there is an actual hot war.

However, I think it will do so in a very passive (as in passive detection methods) and secretive way, so we are unlikely to get any actual information on any of it happening in none kinetic fields like EW and jamming etc.

But cyberspace might be an area deemed off limits, because there are no geographical boarders.

There is a good chance Indian systems would already be riddled with American and western spyware, as we have a well established pattern of such behaviour from the Americans. Even if Indian systems were relatively clean to start with, as soon as the shooting starts you can bet spyware from all major powers would be rushing in to get first hand intel on Chinese capabilities.

As such, there is a good chance any cyberwarfare assets and capabilities deployed against India would be detected by hostile powers.

Indeed, there might be a multi-party free for all within the Indian network without the Indians even being aware of it.

But the point being that it will be much harder to conduct live tests against the Indians in the cyber realm than other fields given the nature of the internet.

What more, there isn’t really much need to wait until there is a war to test out cyberwarfare capabilities. That can be done pretty much any time anyone wants. But all of this is just conjecture, and there will be no way for anyone to prove any of it, so it would make for a rather fruitless discussion subject.

An interesting and relevant aspect of cyberwarfare was revealed by Snowden. He said that none of the major powers have any intention of actually 'defending' against cyber attacks. This is why the NSA does nothing to help US firms and institutions plug the vulnerabilities in their networked systems. Now, according to Snowden, this is basically a conspiracy, relating to the NSA (and other intelligence agencies) wanting to retain control over their domestic systems. (If you close the backdoors for external/foreign threats, you will close them for yourself as well).

But I think there is another strategic constraint here. I think that trying to plug these gaps is a fool's errand, and the NSA knows this. There is simply no way to detect all the 'zero day' vulnerabilities in the myriad of networked platforms and equipment. You can spend billions of dollars and millions of man hours to try and defend against cyberattacks, but you will never be able to do it. It's practically impossible for everything except an air-gapped system.

This is why the rules of cyberwarfare, which have been (seemingly) universally accepted by all the major powers, indicate relying on Mutually Assured Destruction. Rather than wasting time and money defending against the opponent's attacks, the goal seems to be focused on MAD, to deter the other side from launching any attacks. After all, if financial networks are crippled, that may end up causing even more damage to a country than a nuclear attack on a major city. The US has officially stated that hostile cyberattacks by any country on the US will be an act of war, and may even result in a nuclear response (thereby connecting the MAD doctrine directly with cyberwarfare.)
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
At this point I think starting a war with India is extremely low probability.

That strip of disputed land is not worth a nuclear war over 20 something lives lost out of 3 billion between between both countries.

Keyboard warriors will never actually join the battlefield. The armed forces don't have any motivation. Conflict over disputed land is expected, it's not like China or India are actually invading each others' cities.

US logistics backing is not enough to motivate Indians to attack. Most Indians are more interested in the recent suicide of an actor.




What can happen is if US start a war and India and other China haters follow and use the opportunity.
 
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Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
This seems to be the only confirmed PLA KIA(?) from the skirmishes so far, a 19yo border guard from the 363rd Border Defense Regiment (69316部队):(
View attachment 62838
If this is true, then it is extremely unfortunate the Chinese military did not report this. It's pretty bad giving your life to your country and not having your country even mention your death, let alone your identity. Just saying the PLA suffered "casualties" does not do this young man any justice.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Why? There seems to be a pattern in this forum to give everyone but China the initiative. India can decide the scope and tempo of conflict, America can decide the scope and tempo of conflict, but heaven forbid China do anything but fight with one hand tied behind its back. If China decides there's going to be war, it will be to destroy India and cripple any capacity it has to threaten China for a hundred years.
No. No one is saying that China cannot decide the tempo of the conflict. China has full control of the escalation ladder with India as Praveen Sawhney emphases many times.

China already dominates India on the kinetic war front. Taking the war to the cyber and space may be overkill. The reason why I think this is the case is because China always tries to give room for deescalation. Its like a kung fu master letting a dumb street thug lead the fight. The thug gets whooped in unarmed combat. But if he does not learn his lesson and pulls out a knife, then the master could counter his weapon and show him what a real knife fight looks like. Its a very Chinese thing.

If it were up to me, I won't mind having the full might of the PLA cyber and space force send India back to the analog age. They are long overdue for a humiliation. But the leaders in China are much more humanistic and patient than me.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
If this is true, then it is extremely unfortunate the Chinese military did not report this. It's pretty bad giving your life to your country and not having your country even mention your death, let alone your identity. Just saying the PLA suffered "casualties" does not do this young man any justice.

Newer posts on CJDBY are claiming that this is a P.Sed photo. Let’s wait before reaching any conclusions.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
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AZaz09dude

Junior Member
Registered Member
The text on the headstone does look a bit off, but the background and the unearthed base of the headstone look really hard to fake. It could be easily disproved if someone posts the alleged pre-photoshoped version
 
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