You know. I've started to appreciate your humor.
Ladakh Flash Point
- Thread starter Mt1701d
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Serious question, is gadgetcool5 himself of Indian ethnicity, or is he tidalwave? or both
Modi thought he could be the Trump of Asia, spurned Xi's overtures to join China and instead turned around and joined the Quad to help the US contain China, then wants to stir up more and more border disputes and take land from China, and if Gadgetcool5 thinks that is okay, and between this and his little article essay on how the US was "100%" gonna to win the Trade War against China, I think he is trolling to instigate. There is no other reasonable, rational or logical conclusion that one could infer from his pattern of behavior.
This coming from the same guy who talks about "friendship" as the magical solution to everything, why not ask Modi to be more "friendly" to China then? China had been incredibly patient, but India has made its decision and motives and intentions clear... If India wants to resolve this, it needs to be "friendly" to China, not the other way around. I don't see Gadgetcool5 ever advocating that USA be "friendly" to China, instead all he says all day long is how China doesn't compromise enough and doesn't have enough international "friends"... so why should it be that China is always the one bending over backwards to make "friends" with everyone at its own expense? This is a narrative that only the CIA would push for.
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Why would gadgetcool be Tidal Wave? I don't recall Tidal Wave ever being so anti-Chinese (I think he was Chinese); if anything he was always advocating that China was not producing enough weaponry to counter foreign "agression." More than likely, gadgetcool is an Indian who clearly is still salty about an event that occurred over a month and a half ago. Given the magnitude of the Indian defeat though, these feelings are hardly surprising.
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Yeah you are probably right, I think at one point in time Tidal was even advocating that China invade and take over India...
But dear leader Modi himself said China had not entered Indian territory. Brave generals of the Indian bihar regiment also assured us that they have taken down over 100 PLA including important Generals who are veterans of WW2.
So how can we say that India was a victim to China?
This makes Bharat Rhaksak posts look sensible...
Now I clearly know that you are anti-China, but who give you the right to judge China is wrong or not, you are not god, even if you are god, you can't judge a country right or wrong. German in WW2 was not wrong, Hitler made a wrong decision, that makes million suffered
the indian version of the conflict >
In a statement posted on its website, which was withdrawn on Thursday afternoon, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) belatedly admitted what the government has stoutly denied so far: That Chinese troops had “transgressed” the Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the de facto Sino-Indian border – in several sectors in May, and that “the present standoff is likely to be prolonged.” That leaves the government with a simple question: Will those responsible be called to account?
India has never been hot on accountability for national security lapses. After the 1962 drubbing at the hands of China that killed 3,250 Indian soldiers, then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru tried to shield his defence minister, VK Krishna Menon. After the Kargil conflict in 1999, when 522 Indian soldiers gave up their lives to evict Pakistani troops who had infiltrated across the Line of Control (LoC), a single brigadier was held responsible for intelligence and operational lapses that surely originated several levels above that unfortunate scapegoat. So it may be unrealistic to expect accountability for a situation that the government has acknowledged three months late, and through clenched teeth. Hope of accountability lies only in reports that Prime Minister Narendra Modi has quietly made his displeasure clear at the handling of matters by National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval and Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) General Bipin Rawat. More visible actions, such as sackings or transfers, have been avoided since those might constitute a public acceptance of mismanagement.
However, it is worth recounting events as they played out over the last four months in Eastern Ladakh. In mid-April, Indian satellite imagery detected, and signals and human intelligence corroborated, a Chinese military exercise across the LAC involving thousands of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) troops. In normal circumstances, the Indian Army too would have already moved a couple of reserve brigades (each with about 2,500 soldiers) to the LAC, ostensibly for “training” and “operational alert”, but equally to deter China from taking advantage of the springtime thaw and crossing over high-altitude passes on the LAC into Indian territory. However, someone had decided – and this fateful decision could only have come from New Delhi – that Covid-19 was a greater threat than the PLA. The traditional move of reserve formations to Ladakh had been called off this year, leaving the field clear for the PLA.
According to insider reports, intelligence gathering, especially of satellite intelligence left much to be desired, with planners having to fall back on commercial satellite imagery. Within the Defence Intelligence Agency – a tri-services organisation directly under the CDS – there was no cross verification of satellite imagery obtained from various sources and of signal intercepts. There were equal failures in intelligence analysis. In the National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS), which functions under the NSA, there was little coordination between military technical intelligence and that obtained by the four civilian agencies: the National Technical Research Organisation, the Intelligence Bureau, Research & Analysis Wing and the Ministry of Home Affairs through the Indo-Tibetan Border Police. Although the NSCS received a steady flow of intelligence from mid-April onwards, it failed to assess the PLA’s intentions to cross the LAC on multiple fronts.
Even so, the picture should have become clear on May 5, when an outnumbered Indian patrol was roughed up by hundreds of Chinese soldiers at Patrolling Point 14 on the Indian side of the LAC in the Galwan valley. Simultaneously, PLA intrusions were detected in the Hot Springs sector. Yet, the NSA confined his reaction to a pro-forma protest phone call to Beijing.
Over the following days, intelligence warnings poured in about likely Chinese intrusions across the LAC, from the Depsang Plain in Northern Ladakh to Naku La in Sikkim. Yet, on May 9, the government appeared to have been taken by surprise when Chinese soldiers crossed the settled international boundary at Naku La, Sikkim. The CDS and NSA reportedly told the PM that the transgressions were isolated incidents that would resolve themselves. This complacency continued through May 12, when two PLA helicopters chased an Indian chopper carrying a commanding general across the Pangong Tso lake.
The crisis was acknowledged only on May 17/18th, when a PLA horde crossed eight kilometres into Indian territory on the north bank of Pangong Tso, and badly beat up and hospitalized 72 Indian soldiers. Planning finally began in earnest at the 14 Corps headquarters in Leh, with one senior officer describing the mood thus: “It was Kargil redux; everyone was like, is this really happening?”
Four days later, on May 22, army chief, General MM Naravane visited Leh. On May 24, orders were passed for reinforcements to Eastern Ladakh. Almost three weeks had elapsed since the first clash at Galwan. But even now, party spokespersons, establishment-friendly generals and the memorably named “godi media” continued insisting on TV debates and op-ed pieces that all was well.
While Indian reinforcements moved up to Ladakh, the NSA, the foreign minister and India’s ambassador in Beijing engaged the Chinese in talks. Beijing’s stance was clear: India was the aggressor and New Delhi had revealed that last August, when Home Minister Amit Shah told Parliament that Aksai Chin belonged to India. Beijing had not hidden its ire then: Besides voicing strong objections, Chinese troops had crossed the LAC at Pangong on September 11, 2019 and beaten up 10 Indian soldiers and damaged three Indian patrol boats.
With diplomatic engagement faltering, senior army commanders from both sides met on June 6 to discuss disengagement at Galwan. The Chinese proposed “mutual disengagement” and creating “buffer zones” – a formula that favours the aggressor since it is based on the status quo, rather than on the status quo ante. Through these discussions, the CDS and NSA remained passive, apparently still hoping that the Chinese would relent and return. Only on June 15, when Chinese soldiers ambushed and killed 20 Indian soldiers who had gone to the LAC to verify disengagement, did the situation’s seriousness dawn on our security elites.
Even then, the government continued to obfuscate. On June 19, the foreign minister downplayed the intrusions while briefing an all-party meeting. The defence minister denied any intelligence failure. At the end, in a nationally televised statement, the prime minister denied any Chinese intrusions in Galwan. Insiders say it was on the advice of NSA and CDS. By many accounts, the PM has lost faith in the NSA and the CDS for over a month now, preferring the advice of political and intelligence officials who have so far proven correct in their assessments.
If the Chinese continue refusing to pull back in Depsang and Pangong Tso, as seems likely, and stick to the disengagement positions in Galwan and Hot Springs, they would have forcibly created a new LAC, with India having lost several hundred square kilometres of territory. Were New Delhi to acquiesce in this humiliation, it would not just be a blow to national prestige but also set the tone for a subservient relationship with Beijing, along with its cat’s paw, Pakistan. That will be unacceptable to the Indian people. It must also be unacceptable to the government.
I don't know if it's true, but Ajai Shukla has Indian intelligence sources, however if it's true it's a massive humiliation for the Indian army.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
India and China both have different opinions on where the LAC actually is, and there is a fair amount of overlap between the two sides different opinions, hence the dispute and clashes.
China patrols up to its perceived LAC while India does theirs. The boarder has not had deadly clashes for decades because both sides were pragmatic about things. There was an unofficial schedule for when Chinese and Indian patrols would do their rounds so both can patrol the full extent of their respective claims without running into the other side. Thereby maintaining their respective claims while avoiding conflict.
What Indians did was salami slicing tactics by building infrastructure in the disputed zone. This prompted the PLA to establish observation posts and that is how this whole mess started.
Throw in a hothead Indian local commander who watched a few dozen too many bad Bollywood war movies and a general lack of disciple with Indian frontier troops that made them little different from a drunken mob and it is inevitable that encounters would happen and escalate into violence.
But at no point did PLA troops go beyond China’s defined LAC.
Simply put, India tried to be sneaky and change the status quo with Salami Slicing acts of micro aggression that they hoped would be too petty to elicit a meaningful PLA response. They would weather the storm, hold what they got and try for more once the dust settles.
They might have been able to make it work, or at least not have it become an unmitigated disaster had their frontline commander and troops kept their cool. In which case both sides would have just stared off against each other while holding banners and the two commanders have the worst rap battle in human history. Then both sides pull back and it’s like it never happened, like all previous similar stand offs.
Problem was that this time, the Indians tired to go Rambo on the Chinese and got their arses handed back to them so badly that several times more died from fleeing the fight rather than fighting it. That’s from the Indians trying to start things and the PLA just reacting. Just imagine how much worse it would have been had the PLA gone on the offensive.
The Indians are woefully ill prepared to have an actual stand up fight with China. If they tried, the only question worth asking is just how badly does Beijing wants them to pay for their hubris.
Also, this is 2020, not 1962. I would not count on weather or seasons limiting the scope or duration of any conflict because I think if this war kicks off, ground forces will play a fair limited role (except for artillery and ground based missile units). This war will be determined by air power and deep strike capabilities as well as basic logistics.
Holding mountaintop bunkers would be meaningless if the opposition has air dominance or ran with artillery as they can just bomb you to oblivion. PLA ground troops can come in the spring to plant a flag on the rubble if they want.
How far China will go is hard to say right now, as a lot will be determined by Indian action.
China patrols up to its perceived LAC while India does theirs. The boarder has not had deadly clashes for decades because both sides were pragmatic about things. There was an unofficial schedule for when Chinese and Indian patrols would do their rounds so both can patrol the full extent of their respective claims without running into the other side. Thereby maintaining their respective claims while avoiding conflict.
What Indians did was salami slicing tactics by building infrastructure in the disputed zone. This prompted the PLA to establish observation posts and that is how this whole mess started.
Throw in a hothead Indian local commander who watched a few dozen too many bad Bollywood war movies and a general lack of disciple with Indian frontier troops that made them little different from a drunken mob and it is inevitable that encounters would happen and escalate into violence.
But at no point did PLA troops go beyond China’s defined LAC.
Simply put, India tried to be sneaky and change the status quo with Salami Slicing acts of micro aggression that they hoped would be too petty to elicit a meaningful PLA response. They would weather the storm, hold what they got and try for more once the dust settles.
They might have been able to make it work, or at least not have it become an unmitigated disaster had their frontline commander and troops kept their cool. In which case both sides would have just stared off against each other while holding banners and the two commanders have the worst rap battle in human history. Then both sides pull back and it’s like it never happened, like all previous similar stand offs.
Problem was that this time, the Indians tired to go Rambo on the Chinese and got their arses handed back to them so badly that several times more died from fleeing the fight rather than fighting it. That’s from the Indians trying to start things and the PLA just reacting. Just imagine how much worse it would have been had the PLA gone on the offensive.
The Indians are woefully ill prepared to have an actual stand up fight with China. If they tried, the only question worth asking is just how badly does Beijing wants them to pay for their hubris.
Also, this is 2020, not 1962. I would not count on weather or seasons limiting the scope or duration of any conflict because I think if this war kicks off, ground forces will play a fair limited role (except for artillery and ground based missile units). This war will be determined by air power and deep strike capabilities as well as basic logistics.
Holding mountaintop bunkers would be meaningless if the opposition has air dominance or ran with artillery as they can just bomb you to oblivion. PLA ground troops can come in the spring to plant a flag on the rubble if they want.
How far China will go is hard to say right now, as a lot will be determined by Indian action.
SteelBird
Colonel
OFF TOPIC:
I believe your English is excellent but how come you use the word "boarder" instead of "border"? I have seen multiple times and can't help to point it out. What's your native language? Does "boarder" means border in your native language?
Upon checking Google Translate I found:
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