Ladakh Flash Point

Brumby · Aug 8, 2020

Mohsin77 said:
Perhaps the US is still focused on the assumption of survival of networks due to sheer complacency, and because that is their core advantage as a fighting force. On the other hand, this was always something that China/Russia had to find a way to counter. It's much easier (and more cost effective) to break the opponent's networks than to build your own.

I have no doubt about the intent by China/Russia but that is different from ability to achieve the intended outcome. Unless you can be more specific about how, it is a rather nebulous statement.

Mohsin77 said:
But of course, that is a double edged sword, which is why Chinese AI efforts are more focused on being independent of networks altogether.

I have no idea how AI is related to networks and more specifically how it makes network independent. You have to expand on it.

Mohsin77 said:
Jamming isn't the only option, you can also destroy/disable key nodes in the chain. It's exponentially harder to defend all the key nodes in a network than it is to attack them. For one, unless those nodes are air-gapped (which they cannot be, by definition) they will always be vulnerable to malicious code. Secondly, all the Chinese weaponry that the USN is worried about (with regards to defending its surface ships) is also a threat to the static land based network infrastructure.

The US has been taking the security of its networks for granted for a long time. In a true 21st century near peer war, this assumption will be tested for the first time.

Of course any thing that is of a physical nature is vulnerable in some shape or form. That has been the case since the human race engaged in conflict. You have to be more specific For example, I am not sure what is meant by key nodes according to your definition and why they are necessarily vulnerable.

nugroho · Aug 8, 2020

Sardaukar20 said:
I agree that anti-Chinese hatred in Indonesia is still quite serious. I disagree though that their hate rivals that of India. Their hate towards China in reality is not even close to the levels of Vietnam.

All I can say with what I can observe is that Indonesia's relations to China is mixed. The government is relatively friendly to China. They are relatively open to Chinese investments. They are also a significant purchaser of Chinese arms; in particular naval weapons. Natuna is a friction point, but the Indonesian government hasn't made a big fuss about it on the levels of Vietnam and the Philippines.

There is a large ethnic Chinese demographic in Indonesia who are more or less friendly, or at worse slightly distrustful of China. As for the majority ethnic Indonesians, it is rather mixed. The majority probably don't really care, or at most are moderately anti-China. There are minorities who are the Muslim extremists or racist haters who are very anti-Chinese, but these guys have not reached the level to fully influence the government.

Well things can still change in the future. It remains to be seen if Indonesia would eventually become friendly or hostile with China. It is up to the governments on both sides to work this out. This depends more heavily on how the CPC manages this relationship. The current method of bullying Indonesians out of Natuna is clearly not a smart way. A smarter foreign policy is needed to both build Indonesian friendliness while at the same time staking China's historic claim in the SCS.

I don't want to argue with you about anti-China attitude in Indonesia, and this is not the right place either, but if you understand " Bahasa Indonesia " then read Indonesia medsos, watch Indonesia TV, you will know what I said.

Mohsin77 · Aug 8, 2020

Brumby said:
I have no doubt about the intent by China/Russia but that is different from ability to achieve the intended outcome. Unless you can be more specific about how, it is a rather nebulous statement.

Of course any thing that is of a physical nature is vulnerable in some shape or form. That has been the case since the human race engaged in conflict. You have to be more specific For example, I am not sure what is meant by key nodes according to your definition and why they are necessarily vulnerable.

To be continued. I'll do some digging for citations, rather than just speaking on my own. Will create a new thread if I find them and ping you.

I have no idea how AI is related to networks and more specifically how it makes network independent. You have to expand on it.

No it makes 'AI' independent of the network. Autonomous targeting removes dependence on network updates.

Sardaukar20 · Aug 8, 2020

jfy1155 said:
Indians are delusional. 59% Indians want to go war with China. 72% Indians think they can beat China. Bollywood movies and Indian news media propaganda seems to work in India.

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These Indians might just get what they want. A war with China and some more. But they will learn very quickly that their 'dream' of a war with China is actually a horrifying nightmare. Reality is historically cruel to the delusional.

They will learn that India is not the 'Superpowah' that they think it is. And the 'Weak Commie' PLA can actually fight a war and again, school their 'Not 1962 Superpowah Indian Military'.

coolieno99 · Aug 8, 2020

jfy1155 said:
Indians are delusional. 59% Indians want to go war with China. 72% Indians think they can beat China. Bollywood movies and Indian news media propaganda seems to work in India.

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Everybody has been calling India a 3rd World Country. That's not true. Actually India is a 4th World Country.
Here's a video about a young Chinese lady describing her experience traveling thru Incredible India. The narrative of the video :
" A Chinese girl viisits Kolkata and find a landfill that is only 3km away from the very city center and close to the hotel she stays. It totally shocks her to see that locals wash vegetable and themselve with the putrid, toxic water flowing down from the landfill, she asksed the locals how they can use that water for anything and they reply that is the only water avaible for them. Local make their living through this 10 storey tall landfill and the stench in the air makes her hard to breathe and she almost passes out. In the end she exclaims that she never feels this strong that it's so lucky that she was born in a good country, China, she is so lucky that she is Chinese. "

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Brumby · Aug 8, 2020

Mohsin77 said:
To be continued. I'll do some digging for citations, rather than just speaking on my own. Will create a new thread if I find them and ping you.

No worries. Whenever you are ready.

Mohsin77 said:
No it makes 'AI' independent of the network. Autonomous targeting removes dependence on network updates.

Automatic Target Recognition (ATR) is not dependent on networks for targeting solution. It is a function of SAR imagery resolution. For example, the improved Irbis-E supposedly has only a SAR resolution of 1m. In order to ID a vehicle you need minimum of 0.3m resolution. ATR requires 0.1m or less. In other words, it is a function of your radar capability and then applying AI algorithm - not because of network.

It should be obvious by now. SAR imagery resolution, EW, IRST, and ATR (AI driven) are all dependent on intense signal and computational processing. If you recall our conversation on IRST associated with JF-17, you need to correspondingly match required capabilities with enhanced electronics. It is not just a case of installing an AESA radar or IRST pod. Such upgrades are always preceded by electronic upgrade such as DTP-N for the F-18 E/F Block 3 or the F-35 Block 4 with Tech 3 refresh.

Some requirements are so intense that it require heterogeneous processing i.e. a trifecta of FGPAs, Xeon-D and GPGPUs to support the demand of terafloating point operations per second.

Orthan · Aug 8, 2020

Does anyone here knows how a land conflict betwen the indian and chinese armies would develop?

Xizor · Aug 8, 2020

Orthan said:
Does anyone here knows how a land conflict betwen the indian and chinese armies would develop?

Just playing an armchair general here -

If at all its planned, it won't be in the winter.
And if it's in the winter, the conflict will either fizzle out fast or will see India or China open new fronts away from Himalayas as the conflict evolves.

India can only play Defence in the northern Tibetan border (Winter or not). It doesn't have the logistics for an offensive push. Supplies are short for a very import dependant India.

South Tibet is a better area for the conflict from India's point of view (a Defensive war with pointed planned offensive thrusts) as it can leverage the forests for cover of its infantry and focus on a guerilla type offensive (VietCong anyone?). Missiles would also be stationed in East India (closest to threaten Eastern Coast of China). China won't be able to leverage its superior mechanization and logistics there.

Unless Chinese come out to be a truly unprofessional and extremely weak force, I think the odds are in favor of China.

Infact, if there are signals of a massive Chinese push, I'm pretty sure India would try to go Nuclear - India would show a readiness to use Nukes by detonating a Theatrical nuke in some secluded yet contested border region which is claimed by both India and China.

By that point, I'm sure that nations around the world would've threatened to sanction India and China (rather than jump into a fight and risk WW3).

Brainsuker · Aug 9, 2020

nugroho said:
I don't want to argue with you about anti-China attitude in Indonesia, and this is not the right place either, but if you understand " Bahasa Indonesia " then read Indonesia medsos, watch Indonesia TV, you will know what I said.

I don't want to drag this matter more in this thread. But what I understand from Indonesia's media, it is the opposition who always yell "Anti China" rhetoric in here; Like 212, FPI, PKS. Just because they want to de legitimate Jokowi government.

Mohsin77 · Aug 9, 2020

Brumby said:
In other words, it is a function of your radar capability and then applying AI algorithm - not because of network.

I think we're speaking past each other, since you're countering a point I never made... I never claimed that AI precedes imaging. Of course you need data first, and then your pre-trained 'AI' classifies it, and I'm not sure what you mean by "not because of network", because that's also my point.

Some requirements are so intense that it require heterogeneous processing i.e. a trifecta of FGPAs, Xeon-D and GPGPUs to support the demand of terafloating point operations per second.

Yep, and it helps if you have multiple correlating inputs as well, SAR+IR+EO+MMW etc. to feed into the AI. Keep in mind though, the processing requirements for the AI itself (when deployed) are not nearly as high as the radar/IR/EO sensors. Because for 'AI' classification, most of the processing power is needed to train the AI (that's when the neural network 'learns' by processing millions/billions/trillions of datapoints in a non-linear way, to establish its solution parameters.) This process takes a long time and a lot of expensive GPU based supercomputing. However, once the AI is trained and deployed, the resulting classification tasks are super fast and don't require a lot of juice, because the 'learning' part was done back in the lab. At that point the 'AI' is just an I/O stream, you put in data and it correlates the datapoints based on its pre-learned parameters, and spits out a result. There's no 'learning' at this stage.

No worries. Whenever you are ready.

Yep, I hope there's more open source material on this now, the last time dug into this I couldn't find much.

Ladakh Flash Point

Brumby

Major

nugroho

Junior Member

Mohsin77

Senior Member

Sardaukar20

Captain

coolieno99

Junior Member

Brumby

Major

Orthan

Senior Member

Xizor

Captain

Brainsuker

Junior Member

Mohsin77

Senior Member