Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

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You yourself have admitted that China wasn't able to secure a total buffer, which by extent means India secured large parts of the disputed 20%(because it is mostly on India's side of the lac). With the exception of a few km of buffer zones, India's activity remains unchanged from 2019.

Lol that's super faulty logic there China hasn't managed to get a total buffer agreement out of India (only a partial one) means that India secured large parts of the disputed... lul mate. China securing a total buffer would mean India has been totally defeated on this dispute because then India wins 0%, China wins 80%, 20% buffer. More or less the same deal for demarcation China has offered India throughout the later half of the 20th century.

As things stand, India controls 0%-5% of total legacy dispute. China controls 80% to 85% of legacy dispute, 10% to 20% of it is in buffer (partial buffer zones achieved by China in exchange for China disengaging PLA from forward positions that India failed to thwart and failed to counter) and in nominal state - not buffer, no troop presence, but potentially patrolling from either side.

Aksai Chin not touched by India. 20% not controlled by India either. When you say no total buffer agreement managed means India secured large parts of the disputed. 1. This is faulty logic and simply erroneous. 2. Where's any evidence to support this? If India controls large parts of the 20%, India would be talking about to Pluto and back. Patting itself on the back every second. Shouting it from the rooftops of the English speaking internet. In truth, China and India hold similar levels of control over the 20%, remaining are either buffer or barren - no troops, not buffer, but also troop presence and patrol is allowed albeit with distance between troops... so both sides say.
 

ougoah

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I notice you trying to do a typical sneaky Indian word play with a "you yourself admitted..." and then ascribing an incorrect conclusion (your assumption India controls "large parts of 20%" )... lol and the purpose of the "you yourself admitted" part is to give your faulty logic more credence. It doesn't work that way.

China has not managed to get a total buffer out of India. This is still China winning mate. Buffer is what China's after. Like I admitted, China securing a total buffer = India defeat because India wins..... ZERO... 0% of dispute and India's claims. China secured a partial buffer. Partial buffer is like winning $1M instead of the $10M jackpot. India has not managed to take Aksai Chin. China managed to force buffer agreements out of India that wants a lot more land east of this 20%.

Has India secured buffer on Aksai Chin? Pushed PLA out of Aksai Chin and managed to get buffer agreements out of China for Aksai Chin?
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lol that's super faulty logic there China hasn't managed to get a total buffer agreement out of India (only a partial one) means that India secured large parts of the disputed... lul mate. China securing a total buffer would mean India has been totally defeated on this dispute because then India wins 0%, China wins 80%, 20% buffer. More or less the same deal for demarcation China has offered India throughout the later half of the 20th century.

As things stand, India controls 0%-5% of total legacy dispute. China controls 80% to 85% of legacy dispute, 10% to 20% of it is in buffer (partial buffer zones achieved by China in exchange for China disengaging PLA from forward positions that India failed to thwart and failed to counter) and in nominal state - not buffer, no troop presence, but potentially patrolling from either side.

Aksai Chin not touched by India. 20% not controlled by India either. When you say no total buffer agreement managed means India secured large parts of the disputed. 1. This is faulty logic and simply erroneous. 2. Where's any evidence to support this? If India controls large parts of the 20%, India would be talking about to Pluto and back. Patting itself on the back every second. Shouting it from the rooftops of the English speaking internet. In truth, China and India hold similar levels of control over the 20%, remaining are either buffer or barren - no troops, not buffer, but also troop presence and patrol is allowed albeit with distance between troops... so both sides say.
The buffer zone consists of only a few SQ km, how does it consist of 10-20% of the buffer? In many standoff zones like Galwan, only India has permanent camps and infrastructure in the disputed areas, China did a mirror deployment on the settled 80%
 

ougoah

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The buffer zone consists of only a few SQ km, how does it consist of 10-20% of the buffer? In many standoff zones like Galwan, only India has permanent camps and infrastructure in the disputed areas, China did a mirror deployment on the settled 80%

China has permanent camps and infrastructure in the disputed areas.

See how easy it is to claim?

For one thing "you yourself admitted" that China has a road between F8 and F5. That's a permanent infrastructure... Guess you're already wrong.

Until we get live satellite photos showing this area from 2021 to present, and then we can see the deployment positions and nature of movements, we cannot say who has what permanent camps. Both have perm infrastructure within.

You love to say India has down this and that therefore India wins but fail to realise China has the same this and that inside the 20%... not to mention it also has the bigger prize, Aksai Chin, that's won by China. India tried to take Aksai Chin and failed.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
I notice you trying to do a typical sneaky Indian word play with a "you yourself admitted..." and then ascribing an incorrect conclusion (your assumption India controls "large parts of 20%" )... lol and the purpose of the "you yourself admitted" part is to give your faulty logic more credence. It doesn't work that way.

China has not managed to get a total buffer out of India. This is China winning mate. Buffer is what China's after. Like I admitted, China securing a total buffer = India defeat because India wins..... ZERO... 0% of dispute and India's claims. China secured a partial buffer.

Has India secured buffer on Aksai Chin? Pushed PLA out of Aksai Chin and managed to get buffer agreements out of China for Aksai Chin?
My assumption is based upon available satellite imagery and our understanding of the disputed 20%(how most of it is on the Indian side of the Colombo line).

I am sorry if you don't like the phrase "you yourself admitted.". Is "you agreed" any better?
I notice you trying to do a typical sneaky Indian word play with a "you yourself admitted..." and then ascribing an incorrect conclusion (your assumption India controls "large parts of 20%" )... lol and the purpose of the "you yourself admitted" part is to give your faulty logic more credence. It doesn't work that way.

China has not managed to get a total buffer out of India. This is still China winning mate. Buffer is what China's after. Like I admitted, China securing a total buffer = India defeat because India wins..... ZERO... 0% of dispute and India's claims. China secured a partial buffer. Partial buffer is like winning $1M instead of the $10M jackpot. India has not managed to take Aksai Chin. China managed to force buffer agreements out of India that wants a lot more land east of this 20%.

Has India secured buffer on Aksai Chin? Pushed PLA out of Aksai Chin and managed to get buffer agreements out of China for Aksai Chin?
Actually, in all the disengagement areas, the buffer extends from the disputed area(on the Indian side of the Colombo Line) to Aksai Chin(settled 80%). So yes, India has secured buffers extending into Aksai Chin at a few areas, just as China secured a few km of buffer in the 20% dispute.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
China has permanent camps and infrastructure in the disputed areas.

See how easy it is to claim?

For one thing "you yourself admitted" that China has a road between F8 and F5. That's a permanent infrastructure... Guess you're already wrong.

Until we get live satellite photos showing this area from 2021 to present, and then we can see the deployment positions and nature of movements, we cannot say who has what permanent camps. Both have perm infrastructure within.

You love to say India has down this and that therefore India wins but fail to realise China has the same this and that inside the 20%... not to mention it also has the bigger prize, Aksai Chin, that's won by China. India tried to take Aksai Chin and failed.
Ok, so where exactly does China have new permanent positions within the disputed 20% established 2020 that remain today? I am referring to The disputed 20%, not Aksai Chin.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
My assumption is based upon available satellite imagery and our understanding of the disputed 20%(how most of it is on the Indian side of the Colombo line).

I am sorry if you don't like the phrase "you yourself admitted.". Is "you agreed" any better?

Cool those satellites are what exactly? Access the actual data not Twitter screenshots. Access the live data and show them now. Today's image. ID all the dots for us and interpret them.

You have read some random tweets with images with claimed dates and claimed dots being xyz.

I know India has troops within 20%. Otherwise the negotiations wouldn't have been ongoing. We know China has troops in the 20% but no permanent camps.

Actually, in all the disengagement areas, the buffer extends from the disputed area(on the Indian side of the Colombo Line) to Aksai Chin(settled 80%). So yes, India has secured buffers extending into Aksai Chin at a few areas, just as China secured a few km of buffer in the 20% dispute.

No you misunderstand and you're redefining things.

India has not managed to secure any buffer into land that China controlled prior to 2020 standoff.

China has managed to secure some buffer in the remaining 20% dispute. PLA took up forward positions for this goal to at least gain some buffer agreement however not a completed buffer it may be, it is better than no buffer where Indians simply would continue patrolling.

The Indians have not gained a buffer into land that China controlled in Aksai Chin. This whole area can be called Aksai Chin. Buffers are what China wants. What China argues for in negotiations. India plays along as long as the buffer isn't complete and total.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ok, so where exactly does China have new permanent positions within the disputed 20% established 2020 that remain today? I am referring to The disputed 20%, not Aksai Chin.

That's the point! I'm using a random claim like you are!

Have you noticed you're making those claims? Where exactly does India have permanent positions that is has secured most of the 20% according to you.

I could easily say/claim that China secured most of the 20%.

This is how I think it is.

China won and controls the 80%. India lost the 80%. That's settled.

India has unknown levels of presence within remaining 20%.

China has unknown levels of presence within remaining 20%.

There is two stretches of unknown sized buffer areas within the 20% that China managed to get out of India in exchange for PLA disengagement from forward positions.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's the point! I'm using a random claim like you are!

Have you noticed you're making those claims? Where exactly does India have permanent positions that is has secured most of the 20% according to you.

I could easily say/claim that China secured most of the 20%.

This is how I think it is.

China won and controls the 80%. India lost the 80%. That's settled.

India has unknown levels of presence within remaining 20%.

China has unknown levels of presence within remaining 20%.

There is two stretches of unknown sized buffer areas within the 20% that China managed to get out of India in exchange for PLA disengagement from forward positions.
The Indian Army Northern Commander literally visited Indian permanent camps in disputed areas of Galwan and Depsang. I posted images from those visits earlier. These were the camps I showed using satellite imagery multiple times a while back .
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are claiming that "India must have secured most of the 20%" because China hasn't gotten a full buffer out of India. This isn't true and requires very clear proof. The truth is both have unknown levels of presence within 20%.

In the 80% there is zero Indian presence. Total Chinese presence and control.

Made it simple for you and tricky semantics and dodging.
 
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