Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

Even RJS did not give an exact location for the lac. That was simply an interpretation by Ajai Shukla, as cpationed in Detresfa's image. Interesting how not a single historical Indian or US document corroborates Shukla's claims. And as we know, Shukla was lying about the clubs inhis picture being used by the pla, so that should automatically put all of his claims into question. Even the map coordinates provided in the official Indian gov. report contradict Shukla's claims.

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RJS merely claimed that whatever LAC presented by Government Of India wasn't the LAC that he patrol with in sight.

Can't you read? A historical document actually agrees with what Ajai Shukla claimed.
His claim was that the present LAC is not the right one. As to the exact distance, he collects the information from RJS, who claims he went past upto 6 km from the mouth.

Bold 2:

The Indian government has been caught covering up for its losses of territory. It was forced to shift the LAC back. It even had Patrol points 14 likely shifted back

twineedle said:

Interesting how you still peddle those lies despite the fact you know both Indian and Chinse documents contradict it.

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A case of projection Mr Jai Hind ?
Which documents contradict? You have never submitted one till now.


The truth is that Indian LAC has been shifted because of China. Whatever Google votes as the LAC is the new one. The old one lay east of the Y junction.

Have any evidences to claim otherwise? Nothing so far.

China has effectively moved past its claim line of 1960 to the new claim of entirety of Galwan.

India now has a post 2. 25 km away from LAC and buffer zone in its own traditional control area.

Come up with new excuses.

The historical document showed that China's 1960 claim line was nearly a km from where Ajai Shukla claims it is, as detresfa's image showed China reached a few hundred meters north of that, which would later be the de facto lac that india recognized in 1993 This map makes it clear. In order to prove otherwise, one would have to present undeniable proof that the line Google has used since google maps was developed is "new."

Xsizor said:

The truth is that Indian LAC has been shifted because of China. Whatever Google votes as the LAC is the new one. The old one lied east of the Y junction.

Have any evidences to claim otherwise? Nothing so far.

China has effectively moved past its claim line of 1960 to the new claim of entirety of Galwan.

India now has a post 2. 25 km away from LAC and buffer zone in its own traditional control area.

Run back to your safe space in IDF and come up with new excuses.

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You can clearly see that the line on google is several hundred south and east of the bend. That is exactly what I have said, and even RJS said that. Where is the confusion in that? That is the line both sides disengaged from. Compare that with the annotated map using the US Office of the Geographer line
But according to you google, Shiv Aroor, Nitin Gokhale, the CIa, US Office of the geographer, Indian Government documents, Lt. Gen. HS Panag., etc. are all lying. In general, when one person says something and ten people say something different, that should raise questions. And as I said before, the burden of proof lies on the accuser. What Shukla is claiming RJS said is, to use your words, "hearsay." Are there any historic maps showing India claiming a km past pp14? In fact, I found a historical map showing that the de facto lac was well behind pp14, about where China's claims were until 2020.

twineedle said:

The historical document showed that China's 1960 claim line was nearly a km from where Ajai Shukla claims it is, as detresfa's image showed China reached a few hundred meters north of that, which would later be the de facto lac that india recognized in 1993 This map makes it clear. In order to prove otherwise, one would have to present undeniable proof that the line Google has used since google maps was developed is "new."

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Yes. Indeed.
Claim line is not LAC.

Don't understand what you're arguing about here.

China's claim line of 1960 and India's LAC are not the same.

twineedle said:

You can clearly see that the line on google is several hundred south and east of the bend. That is exactly what I have said, and even RJS said that. Where is the confusion in that? That is the line both sides disengaged from. Compare that with the annotated map using the US Office of the Geographer line

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280054738659115008

But according to you google, Shiv Aroor, Nitin Gokhale, the CIa, US Office of the geographer, Indian Government documents, Lt. Gen. HS Panag., etc. are all lying. In general, when one person says something and ten people say something different, that should raise questions. And as I said before, the burden of proof lies on the accuser. What Shukla is claiming RJS said is, to use your words, "hearsay." Are there any historic maps showing India claiming a km past pp14? In fact, I found a historical map showing that the de facto lac was well behind pp14, about where China's claims were until 2020.
View attachment 70240

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Google places its LAC adjacent to the Y junction.

The old LAC or the original lay somewhere near Chinese claim line but never at the Y junction. that Google places it.

If the Indian government says that LAC is somewhere, can these people you cité argue against that?

The same applies to US. They are choosing to show what the Indian government says.
The reality is that the LAC has been likely shifted hundreds of meters from the original /old one.


RJS doesn't use hearsay. He is willing to go on record. That isn't hearsay. He is also a patrol troop commander. To twist his assertions into the basket of "hearsay" only serves to help your agenda.

About the map

Things are not clear enough. All that's shown is that red line touches just before the dotted line.
No bend is depicted. A zoomed in map could've helped but that's not the case.

Drawing conclusions to fit an agenda from foreign country's intelligence agency is convenient to say the least.

Xsizor said:

Yes. Indeed.
Claim line is not LAC.

Don't understand what you're arguing about here.

China's claim line of 1960 and India's LAC are not the same.

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With the exception of Pangong and Depsang, India recognized the areas China reached in 1962 as the de facto lac. That was effectively what both sides agreed to do in the 1993 agreement to maintain peace along the lac. And you still have not presented any documents to show what the "old" lac was. The source you earlier presented actually contradicted Ajai Shukla, becasue they showed that prior to 1962, the Indian government recognized the border as right behind the de facto lac of the 1993 agreement, represented by Google. And the map I showed earlier is from decades ago. Even the original source is from 2015. How is the US going by what India says?


Surely you can present one historic docment that proves Shukla's claims?

twineedle said:

With the exception of Pangong and Depsang, India recognized the areas China reached in 1962 as the de facto lac. That was effectively what both sides agreed to do in the 1993 agreement to maintain peace along the lac. And you still have not presented any documents to show what the "old" lac was. The source you earlier presented actually contradicted Ajai Shukla, becasue they showed that prior to 1962, the Indian government recognized the border as right behind the de facto lac of the 1993 agreement, represented by Google. And the map I showed earlier is from decades ago. Even the original source is from 2015. How is the US going by what India says?

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Surely you can present one historic docment that proves Shukla's claims?

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The LAC was never delineated in the 1993 agreement.

The source I presented (@nmenonrao)-if that's what you are referring to-was about Claim line of China in 1960.

The status quo after the 1962 war isn't discussed. Merely what the claim of China in 1960 was.

I understand the map you showed is from decades ago but the original LAC and pp14, as per RJS is not what is laid down by India now.


Yes. RJS. He is an historical document in itself.

You are talking about LAC that was never agreed upon by either China or India by any agreement. Only an LAC that was in the perception of a Patrol Troop Commander holds higher relevance.

twineedle said:

it was Ajai Shukla who initially shared that photo. The same guy who lied about the location of India's claimed lac in Galwan, when India's historic claim is clearly shown on Google, so he could say India lost territory.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273478468919951361

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Shukla is obviously extremely pro India and will lie against China for India. Like I said before, the high profile Indian commentators (many are very reputable or at least ranked or ex military) will talk and lie (twist the truths) for India. If VK Singh says IA conducted more than 5 times as many patrols past the LAC, don't be thinking he's making that up, be suspicious that 5 times is AT LEAST the frequency and he has an interest in saying at least 5 times when the truth is 20 times (as an example).

Shukla is extremely pro India and it's very obvious since the beginning. Jai Hinds just hate him because he sort of humiliated Modi and his gang and talked against them. He made the situation seem even more humiliating for India than it already was/ really was. But he's heart is with India and he will represent the realist/pessimist whereas the Jai Hind crew prefer to make up fantasy lies that soothe their egos.

ougoah said:

Shukla is obviously extremely pro India and will lie against China for India. Like I said before, the high profile Indian commentators (many are very reputable or at least ranked or ex military) will talk and lie (twist the truths) for India. If VK Singh says IA conducted more than 5 times as many patrols past the LAC, don't be thinking he's making that up, be suspicious that 5 times is AT LEAST the frequency and he has an interest in saying at least 5 times when the truth is 20 times (as an example).

Shukla is extremely pro India and it's very obvious since the beginning. Jai Hinds just hate him because he sort of humiliated Modi and his gang and talked against them. He made the situation seem even more humiliating for India than it already was/ really was. But he's heart is with India and he will represent the realist/pessimist whereas the Jai Hind crew prefer to make up fantasy lies that soothe their egos.

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Then why did he lie about India losing territory it had previously controlled even when he was disproven by satellite imagery(which he shamelessly denied)? EVen the recent images still show Inidan positions East of points 15-17, which he said was "off limits" to Indian soldiers. And why did he stay silent in 2013, when China first started building up near the y junction? That is becasue he is not pro India he is pro Congress. Many of the "jai hinds" like Shiv Aroor, Nitin gokhale, and Col. S. dinny were simply saying things as they were without lying and twisting, like Shukla did. Telling lies that make your country look bad does not make one patriotic.

twineedle said:

Then why did he lie about India losing territory it had previously controlled even when he was disproven by satellite imagery(which he shamelessly denied)? EVen the recent images still show Inidan positions East of points 15-17, which he said was "off limits" to Indian soldiers. And why did he stay silent in 2013, when China first started building up near the y junction? That is becasue he is not pro India he is pro Congress. Many of the "jai hinds" like Shiv Aroor, Nitin gokhale, and Col. S. dinny were simply saying things as they were without lying and twisting, like Shukla did. Telling lies that make your country look bad does not make one patriotic.

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Ooo
I don't think most members here are interested in what one retired person says except when he goes against the popular narrative.

The many evidences he submits (partial or completely true) is utilized to see a picture that is different from what Indian government and media insists.

Lets keep things in perspective.


India did have setbacks against China in three distinct regions.

1. India had its LAC shifted back in Galwan and buffer zone created in what is essentially its own areas of patrol.

2.Had buffer zone created in what was within its traditional patrol points in Gogra. (somewhere between PP17A to PP19)

2.And probably has Chinese posts deep in traditional Indian territory in Hot Springs.
(subject to satellite images being upto date).

@twineedle

Do you think otherwise?

Your positions against them are

1. (Galwan) Indian LAC has never been shifted from the present one. Both PP14 and LAC has been the same since 1962. Google is right. CIA is right.

2. (Gogra) Nah. Uh. India does not have a buffer zone in what is within its own LAC (between PP17A and PP19).

3. (Hot Springs). Disengagement hasn't been complete. After disengagement Chinese posts will be removed.
(if the satellite imagery is upto date).


The above are your positions, right?

I don't think those staunchly pro-China need to be aggravated considering the above situation (because it's either an India lose or stalemate condition).